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Blowing Fuse

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I have recently acquired a magneto ignition 1962 650SS (151BJW) which seems to have appeared in a couple of magazine articles in the past Real Classic issue 163 November 2017 and Classic Bike Guide January 2024.

I have now had a couple of short outings and have removed the seat and tank to investigate cable routings etc.

In doing so, I found that the (12V) battery was completely dry and effectively knackered with zero Volts.

I purchased a new battery today, but when I fitted it the inline fuse (50A) on the negative lead lit up momentarily like a lamp and blew. Whilst generally tinkering, 25A and 35A fuses did likewise.

It now strikes me that the bike is positive earth – taking a feed from the negative battery terminal to the mounting bolt for the rectifier or the bottom bolt fixing for the tool box gives a circuit which I think confirms this.

I don’t really know where to start looking for a short and wondered if there are any usual suspects to consider in the regard.

Also, on the basis that the battery was completely dead and lights etc still worked (although the ammeter didn’t), would it be OK to use the bike with the battery disconnected?

Any thoughts appreciated.

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The YLW wire is a waste of space, the centre bolt through the rectifier which has the Luca terminal (with the dodgy YLW wire) is the earthing bolt for the rectifier, this does not appear to be bolted to Earth? Usually you use the bottom of the tool tray. Which is removed in this picture.

When built this bike would have been 6V and of course Positive Earth. I would suspect it has remained Pos earth but converting to 12V is quite acceptable, but it should have a Zener diode fitted and retain the 3 wire RM19 alternator. The Ammeter won't work if there is no battery to charge! Using 'the Bike' without a battery is not an issue, but beware you have no stop light or horn, the zener if fitted could fail, and if travelling with a lot of engine revs on using the lights might blow bulbs.

Ascertain the rectifier polarity (they are mostly marked) throw away the dodgy YLW wire, remount the rectifier and refit the tool tray, check the presence of a Zener, and refit a new battery (Positive earth) then if the lights work start the engine and you might even have a working ammeter. Further information available but recommend a direct connection to me.

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There is a Zenner diode - located below front LH corner of tank but currently hanging loose as tank has been removed.

Yes - tool tray removed and stud on top of rectifier passes through hole in bottom of tool tray with red wire(s) earthing via stud to tool tray.

Yellow wire can be removed - the pictured arrangement is just as I found it.

Would any of this cause blowing fuse!

Thanks for comments.

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Alistair, 

Forgive me if I have misunderstood or read your post wrong, but if you connect the negative from the battery to the mounting point on the tool tray, this will short circuit and blow any fuse.

What I do in situations like yours is a make up a temporary "fuse" using an old headlamp globe and 2 alligator clips to replace the fuse . Or better still connect between the positive terminal and red wire. When a short circuit occurs the globe will glow and you will save a fuse and possibly some melted wire.

In answer to where to look. I would go inside the headlight shell. Maybe the feed to the ammetre has come off? The headlight is a happy hunting ground for loose connections and bad insulation. (As is under the tank and seat on English bikes)

Good luck.

Don Anson Melbourne Australia 

 

 

 

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Don,

I only opened up the battery box in the course of a general inspection - that is when I noticed that the battery was completely shot.

I bought a new one and fitted it expecting that to be the end of the matter.

However, that is when the inline fuse illuminated and blew.

I thought it strange that the fuse was on the negative side - that is when it occurred to me that it was a positive earth system. To verify this to myself, I took a temporary test wire with bulb off the negative terminal and earthed to the mounting bolt on the top of the rectifier. As the bulb illuminated, I considered there to be a circuit with the red wires attached to the stud on top of the rectifier being part of the earthing side of the circuit.

What I don't know is when or how the battery came to be shot - was it just really old, or has some other fault fried it somehow.

Either way, it seems that the non-functioning battery protected the 50A inline fuse! As soon as I fitted the new battery, the fuse blew. I now know that this should be a 35A fuse.

Alastair

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... I'd replace that rectifier with a modern solid state encapsulated one. They're widely avaikable and less than £10.

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I have ordered a new Lucas 79072B rectifier to replace the current unit.

The 1962 SS does not have an ignition switch - should the lights/ horn work off the battery when the engine is not running?

Obviously prolonged use without the engine would flatten the battery.

When the engine is running, it is charging the battery and powering the electrical consumers.

Previously, they seemed to work, but only when the engine was running which is consistent with a completely knackered battery.

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The SS is a magneto bike therefore no ignition switch (normally). The lights will work off the battery (until flat). Yes knackered battery could allow lights to work but only with engine running.

Ian be careful about buying a rectifier from just anywhere. There is very many encapsulated ones on the market but only a few are up to motorcycle spec. As per I sell.

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I have gone with an OE rectifier:

LUCAS RECTIFIER LU49072 6 VOLT OR 12 VOLT POSITIVE EARTH BSA NORTON TRIUMPH (montysclassicmotorcyclesshop.co.uk)

That way I can just follow the current wiring connection arrangement (minus the yellow wire, of course!).

Could faulty/ inoperative rectifier

a) have knackered the original battery?

b) cause the fuse to blow following fitment of a new battery (engine not running)?

Or is the fuse blowing because the rectifier isn't properly earthed as the tool tray is removed at the moment.

Probably daft questions, but I am not an expert on electrickery and I don't want any of the smoke to escape from the wires.

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The most likely cause for the fuse to blow and the rectifier and even the zener to fail is fitting the battery reverse polarity ie negative earth. If the rectifier had failed (short circuit) in time the battery could have dried out/failed, but it takes time. Once the battery has dried out/failed then the rectifier will not be affected, but continued use of higher revs with the engine (at speed) might cause the zener to fail.

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Although it may have a Lucas logo it's now supplied by Wassell, that well known purveyor of junk going back to the 1970s at least. I'd still go for a solid state job - fully accepting Al's points.

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Wassell have NO technical back up for the customer-buy at your peril! A O Services only sells what I understand. There is NO Lucas, the Real Lucas died in the 1980s, how many times do we need telling.

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I have now looked up AO Services and realise that I have been corresponding on here with the electrical guru!

Al, can I purchase one of your A-Reg One regulator rectifier devices to replace the rectifier and zener diode - assuming it is suitable for a 1962 SS with alternator, although I have no idea what type?

I will put the "Lucas" item down to experience....

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I have now received the rectifier (and dreaded YLW wire) and Zener from this bike. This is what we find, the rectifier is Positive earth (as seen above) with very poor corroded terminals, but they cleaned up. The zener is Short Circuit, this would have been blown by the reversed battery and helped on its way by the 50Amp fuse. The YLW wire was extreemly badly connected-scraped. Take further note, in this case the Zener diode was of Chines origin, looks very similar to the Lucas item (this one has no numbers) even when the diode has a number on it there is no specification available, therefore we cannot trust these devices. Also this is a magneto bike hence no ignition loading on the battery charging hence even the original Lucas Zener diode can very easily be pushed beyond its limit and fail. A magneto bike with alternator and 12V battery and zener diode charge control (even Lucas Zener) is NOT a good idea, take note.
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Package containing returned rectifier tested as still working OK, wiring loom kit and new regulator/ rectifier received this morning from AO Services. Need to use new regulator/ rectifier as Zener diode no longer available and not recommended for the configuration on this bike - see above. Great service and advice from Al - many thanks for your help on this.

 


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