Alton Electric start

Hello Graham, I was just about the first in the UK to have the Alton starter fitted to my Mk2A Commando back in 2014-15. It was fitted by a professional company as Alton had no experience with belt drives with their starter. The company took a couple of days to fit it and said that it was quite a job as numerous spacers etc. had to be fabricated. Alton now provide dimension details for fitment with belt drives but do not, as far as I know, supply these spacers etc. (There are so many different belt-drives available that supplying brand-specific parts would be 'challenging'!) The alternator supplied by Alton is a single phase device which, for me, was a backward-step as I had a three-phase Lucas jobbie fitted. The early Alton alternators were a little fragile - but now OK I gather. The Alton system is reliant on a sprag clutch to operate the system i.e. engaged/disengage the starter - sprag failures are not unknown (on other systems also). The starter itself is powerful and spins the Commando motor over with ease.

The cNw system retains the existing Lucas alternator which means you have an upgrade path to three-phase if desired. Their belt drive and clutch is well know as a good set-up and the starter system utilises a 'proper' 'Bendix-type' engagement design and also employs a sprag to disengage the reduction gear-train. An elaborate system but you get what you pay for ... .

I believe you can get the cNw system via the Dutch distributor - this may cut costs.

I fitted the Alton kit to a Commando that had a 50mm belt drive fitted. To get the Alton system to fit I had to turn down the drive front pulley to 25mm width make and bolt a keeper plate to it then used a 25mm belt. I still had to turn down the Alton spacer to make it all fit as shown in the 4th image below.  

I fitted the Alton kit to my wife's MK2A this year but retained the chain drive. Easy to fit and it has been 100% reliable.

I also have one on my Velocette Venom fitted by a previous owner and I needed a few parts for this and Alton were very helpful with a quick service.

I chose the Alton over the CNW for my wife's bike as I believe parts turnaround if required would be cheaper and more quickly available from the US.

Hi Graham, a friend of mine has just had his CNW e start order cancelled as it appears they have stopped production at the moment. This might cause a problem with spare parts. Quite a few of my friends in the Yorkshire Branch have fitted Alton starters as well as me. I already had an RGM belt drive fitted to my 750. I did have to make a new spacer, a side plate to keep the belt on the front pully and the new thicker inner primary chaincase needed some machining to give room for the front pulley to fit all the way tightly onto the tapered crankshaft. Not difficult if you have access to a friends lathe and milling machine. (Some of my friends did not have to do some of the work I had to do). I've had a knee replacement and have found the Alton starter a life saver over the last 6 years. If you want to talk about it just email me your phone number to:

nortoncalendars@yahoo.com

I can tell you in more detail over the phone what I had to do but in my opinion it's well worth fitting one.

Cheers Don

Has anybody looked at making an electric start for a dominator. Ive looked at the options and think it is possible with a few modifications. any comments would be appreciated.

Many people have looked at electric start for Dominators and a number have produced one off's but the view from the likes of Alton and CNW is that there are too many variations to make it commercially viable to manufacture. You can see from above that even the Commando version often needs machine shop facilities. I believe there is also an issue with some models not having enough space between the engine / carb / oil tank / ignition area.

If anyone who HAS created a working setup with enough details to manufacture, the NOC may be interested in taking it to production. Contact me through the usual way.

Tony

I was working on a sort-of Alton Dommie. Well its planned for my Atlas, with bits off my 850- engined dommie.The plan (hope) is to assemble as a big Atlas ie upright engine, not with the usual canted setup for Commando/ Dommie combinations. Using an 850 engine means I get points- in- timing cover, so there is no issue with space being taken up by a mag or distributor- I think these would preclude a starter fitment.

I guess a starter could be mounted where the dynamo was fitted on early twins, but I think the drive system would be quite obtrusive.

I have had a tin inner chaincase strengthened with 1/8" steel plates welded either side, and the outer will need an additional bulge in the outer where the alternator is.

I dont have access to machining facilities, so I got stuck on the various spacers at the crank end.

Project on ice: all bikes/bits in storage container, pending hoped-for house sale and move.

PS any recommendations for reasonable price for small 1-off CNC-laser cut bits for the above? W London area if poss.

The distance on a Domi from the aft end of the AMC gearbox to the front of the timing cover is actually longer on the Domi than it is on the Commando, this would suggest the envelope would take an electric starter system relatively easily. Maybe the Alton kit with re-designed engine plates to bring the gearbox forward might be the cheapest way. 

Hello Graham,

I have two Commandos both with Alton starters. The first one I fitted it to was an 850 with chain drive. Fitting was easy. The only problem I have had is the 3 shear rollers sheared at one point. They are supposed to shear to protect the Alton kit from a back-fire on start up. I had never had a back fire, so it wasn't that. The shear rollers that came out were quite brittle - they're made of polyeurathene. I use Ford type ATF in the primary and it maybe that it makes them brittle over time. But changing them for a spare set is relatively easy.

The second one I fitted to a 750 with an RGM belt drive conversion. I bought the kit from RGM and it contained instructions to machine down the spacer supplied. It doesn't work properly - You do the measurements and end up with a negatively sized spacer! I managed to do it by machining out the centre of the belt drive pully and then machining a wafer thin stepped spacer - not easy on a chinese mini lathe - parting the spacer off is quite tricky. After that it fitted fine but neither RGM nor Alton seemed to take much interest in the fact that the instructions were wrong. But there was one other issue. When I fitted the alternator rotor, I followed the Alton instructions to space the stator from the rotor. When I finished, I rotated it a few times with the fibre spacer still in place. After not many miles of use, the alternator started charging poorly. It wasn't a massive problem because at the time I was only doing local runs. I measured the alternator output and it was down. Alton were slow to respond but eventually sent replacements. When I took the rotor off, I noticed a very slight rub mark - which had been very difficult to spot when it was installed. I checked the rotor segments with a permanent magnet and found that the segments under the rubbing point were less magnetic than the others. Sure enough, replacing it made everything work again. But here's what I found, I put a clock on the rotor and span it on a bit of 3/4" bar to find that there was 15 thou run out. I have a video of that and I put it on a server and sent a link to Alton. They haven't responded at all but I assume they accepted that it was a manufacturing fault and think it must have been a one-off. I've known one other person have the same problem though. I realise this isn't a mass market but I would have hoped that at £2500 a go, the QA and follow up help were improved.

Neither of the rotors I have in operation now run perfectly true, which does make setting up a bit of a concern. But they are true enough not to rub so the alternator performance stays OK. I'm keeping my 3/4" bar handy so that I can test the run out beforehand. It may be possible to machine them down carefully. The magnets sit inside a bolt on ring.

I hope that helps.

How did you get the anti backfire device apart to change the shear rollers? It looks to be pressed together with nothing to grip on to part it.

The only mod I had to do to fit my Alton when I got it several years ago was to file out the three screw holes in the rear primary case slightly to rotate it relative to the crankcase tapped holes so it dropped at the rear to clear the Z plate but only a small amount.

I also emailed Alton a while back regarding spare starter motor brushes but never heard back from them. I found some in another starter I had kicking about which were identical and as good as new so didn’t bother contacting them again. Starter working well again.

Regards, Al.

To avoid breaking the rollers the battery should be in good condition. Just because a battery charges does not mean it is in good condition. Most failures we see are from owners using a battery that is over 2 years old. 

A weak battery does not mean that your starter will not damage the rollers, look up what happens when voltage drops, in severe cases it can rip the welds on the parts that hold the rollers. 

Ashley - for the less technical of us, could you explain why insufficient voltage may lead to mechanical damage ?   

Thanks.

Are any resellers in the UK providing proper technical backup when faults appear?

( from my reading of various forums, Alton’s tech backup/quality control has been variable, though some hints of better more lately)

In real simple terms as what happens in a rotating motor is complex and varies on motor type, but consider that a motor will always want to rotate. A motor will have a limit that it stall, at which point it will still be wanting to rotate and produce maximum torque, the relationship between Voltage supplied and Current draw are critical for driving a motor, if these are not ideal or the load is to great, then the motor will stop or not rotate at which point it will apply max torque to the mechanicals attached to the output of the motor. The motor is the poor piggy in the middle and too high a load or insufficient supply can cause damage to the mechanicals attached, the motor and the battery and associated cabling. Thus this condition is best avoided, and as you can see a battery in poor condition can actually destroy the motor and the items attached to its output. A poor battery may not be able to supply both the correct current and the correct voltage (a motor needs both) to suit the motor and this is why a good battery is needed. 

With the above you can now see why the 'backfire' device is there, it protects the motor, likewise in more expensive applications the supply would be protected as well and a clutch or shear device on the output. 

This is the real simple detail, some may ask why when the button is pressed why does it not stall then, but that is to do with breakaway and the associated drops as the motor starts to rotate. I suspect there are some out there that spent a good few years studying motors than I did back in the 80's during my weapon engineering apprenticeship. 

if your starter turns slowly, the battery is in doubt or aged, replace it before it damage occurs. Some may query how did we spot this, I noticed that many owners break their little poly bushes in the spring when re-commissioning bikes for the riding season. Replacing the battery solved the breakages. 

Has anyone had experience with their Alton E-start inner primary case impacting or interfering with the rear LHS Isolastics fittings?

Only heard of one case where the chaincase engaged with the Z plate, this was due to the inner chaincase holes in the DS crankcase being slightly in the wrong position, The Kit was tested on another bike and found to be correct. 

Thanks Ashley.  I need to take it all off to replace the countershaft sprocket, so I will know if it is actually touching.  The Iso rubber cover is clearly distorted, and I cannot get a thin feeler gauge between the rubber and the top of the chaincase.  This is not proof, of course.

The part that is inside the rubber cover is the Iso end fitting (Collar 06.0436) that is stationary (not Iso mounted) on the inner/crossover bolt and against the frame fitting.

Thanks again.

What are the threads in the rotor for fitting the 2 removal tool bolts?  My threads are marginal. 5/16" 24tpi is mentioned on-line.  It looks more like 20tpi...  I have metric bolts but no metric thread gauge. A bolt I believe to be an M8 also nearly fits.  As there are only 2 to 3 threads to work with, I need to get right to correct any issues.

FYI, I bought the used Alton advertised here from Norman Rowden.  There were several parts damaged,   some stator   coils    had damage from something rubbing on them. The  rotor aluminum casing was cracked, and the solenoid    was  fried. After sending photos , I never from  him again. Also I could not figure out what happened. Here are photos.   I replace all the  damaged parts and it seems to be working  good.  But overall I am not  impressed with the unit, and fragility of the  parts.

The 850 Mk2A I purchased had an Alton starter fitted (and a belt drive).

I had the shear pins (6 in total I recall) fail. The battery was low - so that may have been the cause....after a month or two of the bike standing.  The failed polyurethane shear pins did seem fairly brittle.

I contacted Alton and was provided replacements free of charge as I purchased their solonid mounting bracket (the original solonoid mounting was a heath robinson affair).

Fitting was pretty straight forward, with the alternator and starter chain having to be removed/ressembled.

I have heard that when the battery is low a boyer electronic ignition will fire advanced - and this will induce a kick back on a slowly rotating engine.  That may have been what happened in my case.

I can't help thinking when looking at the various responses on this thread we may be discussing various stages of Alton starter design's since their inception.  All I can say is I am very happy with the quality and robustness of mine, and would fit again if I had the need to.  Communication with Alton France was pretty quick and direct.

Just to add I have had a new Alton on my commando for the past 5 years , I had a Boyer spit back when I switched on the ignition a few years ago , engine hot after a run and had to replaced the shear pins Alton posted them out for free as the kit was still under warranty they told me to fit only the three  , they sent six, I was out in November for a last ride before the salt 2022 and the bike had cooled at the coast and I heard the dreaded rattle again when I pressed the button , kicked her up on the kicksart but I agree that its probably my battery not spinning over compression and causing damage to the poly pins . 

my question is would there be more damage if I had 6 pins in so less chance of shearing but more stress on sprockets and chain? 

do we all run with three in ? 

I have just this evening received an e-mail form Paul Hamon over at "Alton" answering my question as to whether their product will spin over a Combat with its original compression of 10.1.

This is his reply;

Hello

Thanks for your message.

It seems that Andover was a bit shy !

We deal with these kits since 2012. It means they are fitted on many Commandos with many different specifications and surely many different uses worldwide.

Most of the people do not ask if the kit will fit before purchasing it.

At this point we have no feed back from anyone saying : « Your kit does not work with MY specific Commando ».

So that I would not worry for the high compression ratio on yours.

Of course, you will have to take care about a battery in good conditions and about the correct carb adjustments.

Actually that's something we can recommend to all.

Season greetings

Yours

Paul

This reply is eye opening in many ways regarding folks who buy this kit and don't ask if it will actually do what it says it will.

To then go on to say that they have no negative feedback to report seems a tad hopeful to

say the least!

Do any of our members with Combats have any experiences with the Alton starter copping with 10.1 compression on a rebuilt engine?

All the information regarding the shear rollers sends alarm bells ringing loud and clear to me suggesting that 3 rollers at best just about cope and that strength in numbers would be the way to proceed, surely the mechanics can cope??

P R G.

Hi Paul

I've fitted Alton Starters to 2 Combat Commandos and personally have had no issues. One with a belt drive and one with the original triple chain.

 I also fitted new 18AH AGM Batteries and Trispark ignition and also their regulator to both bikes. I also ensured the Amal's were set up properly. The starters have never struggled to turn the engines over.  

Hello Martyn. Thanks for the definitive answer! As I will be going the Tri spark route too. The battery size is in the ball park area I was thinking of around 19Ah.

Alan Osborn can supply a regulator in an effort to put a bit of home brew to the project!

I'm a number of months away from attempting to kick start the model and these enquiries are part of the build experience.

Once the posties have sorted my spares supply hold up, I can make some more progress and order some more pieces.

I have become a dab hand at producing precision stainless steel swarf in many colours these past months.

Rgds.

Paul.