650SS originality

The primary chaincase on your bike was chrome from the factory, the oil tank and battery box and cover were not, they were black.

Why are you not willing to put in the effort to obtain popular history books on the subject or at least the factory parts books and owner's manuals and brochures? I sure don't want to put more effort into helping your bike than you do.

Hi David

I believe our grumpy friend Ben may possibly be wrong on this occasion? The Primary Chaincase, Oil Tank and Battery Box were all Black - You can check out the attached pic - For free!

Oh dear David, I think you have possibly ilicited the rudest response I have ever seen from a member of the NOC (above).

Rest assured that most NOC members are more than happy to offer advice, help and support, otherwise there would be little point in having a club.

I suppose "happy Ben" did at least answer your query before offering his sad take on the world of Classic bike ownership, lol

David,

My 650SS is chrome on all three items, when researching my bike I found all manner of combinations, I wonder if with factory options being available at the time when new it is even possible to ever find out what it actually looked like when it left the factory.

Good Luck

Tony

Hi David

Typical insipidBen Gradler comment which you should not take too much notice of.

The primary chaincase was probably black when it left the factory but at that time chroming items was a popular pastime.

Regards &Best wishes for 2013.

I've looked at my 1964 parts list and the outer chaincases for 88SS and 650SS are listed at £4-1s-0d, but for 650/99 and Atlas at £5-11s. So it looks like the 'standard' front outer chaincase in 1964 was LESS expensive for 650SS and 88SS tha for the others - and therefore presumably black - and the 650, 99 and Atlas presumably chrome plated (at £1-10s extra)?

In each case the costlier item has a subscript 'A in the part number.

So if (as Ben says) the 650SS had chrome front chain case then either my parts list is wrong - or Ben is.

The rear chainguard is listed at two prices for all bikes. So chrome must have been a 'standard option' for 88SS, 650SS, 99, 650 and Atlas.

Oil tank only appears at one price.

Did USA bikes have chrome everywhere for all?

I am a little surprised that AJD has not jumped fully clothed into this pool ofofferings yet.

Phil is right, Norton listed extra for chrome on some items. Ou r 67 Atlas came very second hand with chrome chaincase,oiltank,frame covers ,alloy rims etc. I suspect some items were added by a previous owner as it also had a mag and Dunstall rests .

Hi.

Take a look at this French site http://www.motos-anglaises.com/

Looking through the factory records held by the NOC might mentionif the bike was sent out with extra chrome but it's more likely the bits mentioned were black. What with the price of chroming I would hope they were!!!

Cheers.

Ian.

Hi again,

Just clicked on that link and it didn't go to the page expected - click on 'Liens' at the top and then 'Catalogues Motos Anglaises' which will take you to a whole list of different make including Norton.

Ian.

Ere you go!

Same website - go to Manuels Motos Anglaises -1962 parts book, page 70, Pt No.20914 - Front Chaincase Outer Cover - Chrome. Listed as an optional extra but no mention of chrome oil tank or battery box.

Cheers.

Ian.

Going by failing memory here... I never saw a 650 in the showroom with chromed oil tank or battery box and lid. Almost certainly a later bling exercise. Some did have the optional extra chromed chaincase but that was generally considered a bit flash. My attempts at bling never came to more than psychadelic hippos on the petrol tank. Didn't last fortunately. Gordon.

Previously wrote:

Going by failing memory here... I never saw a 650 in the showroom with chromed oil tank or battery box and lid. Almost certainly a later bling exercise. Some did have the optional extra chromed chaincase but that was generally considered a bit flash. My attempts at bling never came to more than psychadelic hippos on the petrol tank. Didn't last fortunately. Gordon.

I have a Ducati with a Pink Floyd paint scheme !!!!. Its got to go.

What year did Norton first use the Twin Leading Shoe brake??????

Skip Brolund

My 67 atlas came with one .

Interesting... The very last featherbeds, the 650 Mercurys, had SLS brakes. Again, just going by dodgy memory, I can't remember seeing a Norton TLS brake before 1969. But of course I could be wrong. Gordon.

This is a very good question which is proving difficult to accurately answer, at the moment.

I haveno records showing any Nortons fitted with TLS before 1939 so the chances are that, due to WW11,they arrived post 1945.

The photos that I posses of the racing Nortons, up to 1950, show conical hubs and single shoe brake plates with air scoops. Andrew Kemp, De Cet (2004). Classic British Bikes: mentionsNorton Racersappearing in 1948 with TLS. This also needs confirmation.

However, it is not until 1953/54 that of bikes sporting a TLS appear in my photo collection. I suspect that the change, byNorton to fitting 8" hubs to the front of most standard road machines, may havehad something to do with this.

My records also suggest that the Factory did notmake its own TLS brake plate in the 1950s. Rather that they wereobtained from an Italian supplier. This needs to be confirmed.

TheNorton promotional blurbmade much of Eric Oliver winning sidecar races using basically a standard Model88. By 1958 these machines sported twoFactory optionalextras. Twin carbs and a standard front wheel with a TLS.

Now the anomaly which needs sorting out by someone else. Eric's 1958 racing machines had a TLS fitted. So did the 1961 Domiracers. But photos of 650 twins in early production bike races show a SLSup front. Was suicidal intentions one of the ruleswhenentering a 650SSinto such arace??? Mind you, the production racers also had to keep chromed rims, silencers, lights etc. So why not a SLS to add to the excitement.

The arrival of the Commando finally gave Joe Public a chance to buy a big Norton twin with a TLS fitted as standard. Strangely, for the 1969 Mercury 650,it was still optional.

So when and why did the John Tickle TLS brake arrive on the market? Or is this another can of worms? I guess that the brake shoes for that are the same as Norton TLS - last time I changed my brakes I seem to remember the TLS shoes differ from the SLS brake although I can't remember why. Possibly the TLS ones are a little shorter to provide space for the extra cam?

Having raced with moderate success using an SLS front brake, the problem was massive overheating and fade not lack of effectiveness. A big airscoop and holes in the hub helped here. I don't think the Tickle TLS brake used the same shoes as the Norton one, but I would love to be proved wrong as I have what I think is a shoe-less Tickle TLS brake lurking in a drawer in the shed. Tickle TLS brakes were certainly available before the Norton ones came on the scene - at least for normal production roadster models. Gordon.

I suspect that the TLS brake on my Atlas was fitted by the previous owner as the bike was littered with bits from Dunstalls. ( all sold for peanuts to put the bike back to standard).The FVQ SLS brake probably saved my life by forcing me to ride slower.

Of course an over-enthusiastic front brake can be hazardous as well. I rode 200 miles home with a shattered clavicle following a front wheel lock-up on a twin front disc Honda (since sold). Had I been on the Norton on the same road at the same speed, I wouldn't have ended up in A & E. For normal use, the SLS is pretty good. Mine can produce tyre squeal if used in anger. Where the TLS scores is in reduced grunt on the brake lever for the same retardation. Which is why my wife's bike has a TLS set up at her insistence.

I think the confusion is that there werethree 650cc models starting in 1961/62, which had 650 standard and 650 DeLuxe which were offered chromed outer primary chaincases, as were all twins from that year. The 'demo' 650ss certainly had achromed one to make it look faster! (Not that it needed it!) I think it's academic whether they were optional extras or not as all the 650SS's I ever saw had the chrome. I think the contemporary road tests had them too - it's too late to check now so I'll do it tomorrow.

The point of a 650SS was that it should look flash and fast to differentiate itself from the earlier models. Twin carbs were another essential for that.

I think a chromed chaincase looks good on all twins - I had one on mine from 1965 and I have a spare chromed one as well as my restored, painted one (which was originally chrome but rotted over 37 years of neglect!) On the other hand, chromed battery box lids and oil tanks just don't look right and were never available as options from Norton works.

Happy New Year,

Lionel

Previously wrote:

I think the confusion is that there werethree 650cc models starting in 1961/62, which had 650 standard and 650 DeLuxe which were offered chromed outer primary chaincases, as were all twins from that year. The 'demo' 650ss certainly had achromed one to make it look faster! (Not that it needed it!) I think it's academic whether they were optional extras or not as all the 650SS's I ever saw had the chrome. I think the contemporary road tests had them too - it's too late to check now so I'll do it tomorrow.

The point of a 650SS was that it should look flash and fast to differentiate itself from the earlier models. Twin carbs were another essential for that.

I think a chromed chaincase looks good on all twins - I had one on mine from 1965 and I have a spare chromed one as well as my restored, painted one (which was originally chrome but rotted over 37 years of neglect!) On the other hand, chromed battery box lids and oil tanks just don't look right and were never available as options from Norton works.

Happy New Year,

Lionel

Hello Lionel There is no confusion at All , The 650 life span Starts in November 1958 with 6 prototype motors 3 of them went to Plumbstead, its unknown want happen to them , 3 were worked on in test site near Sheenton one ran at MIRA with Fred Swift ,Bill Pincher and Charlie Edwards In a Experimental Frame know as the Pluto frame this was a Oil in the frame, type frame the Engine I speak about is the Unified twin short stroke motor with 1.75 journals and a one peace crankshaft , this motor showed realy positive .But then someone leak it to the Board and the hole thing was scrapped , and the 3 motors ended up at Bracebridge street Experimental department, Then in November 7th 1960 a New Norton motor was built and fitted in the new Slimline frame .And the Berliner Brothers give it this New Name the Norton Manxman 650 -65 or65c, it was the launch of the new export market for Norton .these machines were built up to late August 1961 then you start seeing the 650SS the sport model from September of 61 you then get the De-lux 18D model in two tone metalescen Blue and dove grey and the Standard model in dark polychromactic grey most of these were exported to Europe, this lasted until bracebridge street closed its doors late 62 the only machine to come out of this was the 650SS 1963 models built in Pumbstead in Black with silver tank some parts were optional its like Phil Hannah said if you had the cash you could have what you wanted on the machine . even if it was pink with yellow spots on ! yours Anna J Dixon

The internet, forums and club websites are the least reliable source of information for the restorer of classic motorcycles, as has been shown above. This includes the NOC website and unfortunately it's Roadholder publication as neither it nor this forum is fact-checked with any greater competence than has been shown above, and often worse.

Get the owner's, parts and sales brochures for your 650ss, which can be gotten from dealers or from Ebay auctions, then get some of the popular books by noted authors that have been published on Norton twins and after you look at them all then you will know as well as anyone, and be just as qualified as anyone to make your own decisions regarding what finishes and parts belong on your bike.

Benjamin, the caveat is that sales brochures and parts lists cannot be guaranteed to be accurate - what appeared in a brochure was not necessarily what appeared on the showroom floor. Period photographs are perhaps a better bet. Granted, human memory is fallable, but the printed word cannot be taken as the absolute historical truth either. Ask any historian. I still reckon that not all 650s had chromed primary chaincases - but I could be wrong... Gordon.

Its also well known that USA specs and British spec bikes were often different. I got my License in 1961 and spent much of my youth in the london showrooms of bike dealers particularly Pride and Clarke ,Gus Khunns, Harold Danniels, Sreamlines,Dunstalls, Elite Motors, Boyers et all. The overriding impression was that 650SS and Atlas's had chrome cases, I can well imagine that any reqest from a prospective purchaser would have been swiftly met. Case's switched from stock.

Previously wrote:

Benjamin, the caveat is that sales brochures and parts lists cannot be guaranteed to be accurate - what appeared in a brochure was not necessarily what appeared on the showroom floor. Period photographs are perhaps a better bet. Granted, human memory is fallable, but the printed word cannot be taken as the absolute historical truth either. Ask any historian. I still reckon that not all 650s had chromed primary chaincases - but I could be wrong... Gordon.

Thanks Gordon! That is so true. Having restored many motorcycles & automobiles, I have yet to find an accurate factory parts book. Literature is often a model , or prototype as theactualvehicle was often not in full production before the press photos had to be taken (very common). I have a stack of Original Norton, Lucas, Girling, & Smiths books, pamphlets, and manuals, & there is an error on nearly everyone. Some are innocent typos, giving the wrong part numbers, some have the wrong part identified on a parts list, or a missing part number altogether. This is nothing new, but as you say, the printed word cannot be taken as the absolute historical truth. I like to take all the info I can & see how much of it points to the same conclusion, which includes photos, parts books, workshop manuals, period literature & humans who were there.

Skip Brolund

hi, my memory is not perfect but wasnt one of the actors in the leather boysfilm riding a 650 ss.

anton delon rode an atlas in the motorcycle girl film and theyare both period films.i ve seen a photo of marianne faithful sitting on one of the atlas bikes dripping in oil , so very original.

of topic i know but when i was 15 i went to carl rosners in croydon instead of school to see the new t160s lined up in his showroom,all about a year old. i remember nearly every petrol tank had a different shade of cherokke red . one i thought was an ugly purple but wouldn t dare post that on a triumph forum. and i bet the latest owner repainted it.

Thanks Anna - what I said was right. All the 650SS's I saw had chromed chaincase outers because they looked good! The secondhand chrome one I bought in 1965 was from a wrecked 650SS and I put it on my 99, as well as having the front engine plates + cover, top fork yoke, brake pedaland handlebar clamps chromed! In the mid 1960s bling was the thing! I didn't go as far as getting the battery box lid and oil tank chromed as I also had the cost of rechroming some parts like the fork oil seal holders and top fork nuts. Many people had the main engine plates chromed as well.

My own 1959 99 was a "special" with most of the optional extras for that year like twin carbs, large inlet valves, HC pistons and chromed mudguards - it was black, silver and chrome like the later 650SS. At the time (1965)I corresponded with the factory during the stripdown and rebuild and had letters from John Hudson identifying it as a "Special". I asked him numerous technical questions about it and the best standard to rebuild it to. (E.g. single carb, siamese pipes) Sadly all the letters except one were lost when I left home and got married in 1968- I left them, with some of my spare parts and other bits,in the shed!

Cheers, Lionel

Where is that shed!.

Hi Anna. Yes there IS confusion as can be seen by other posts. That's why I mentioned the various 650 models to help clarify (?) things. Obviously you're not confused as you know everything!

All 650SS's I ever saw in the flesh or on test had chromed primary cases because they look flashy! It was the thing to do to have as much of your bike chromed as you could afford in the mid-late 1960s. I had the front engine plates, cover, top fork yoke, handlebar clamps and rear brake arm chromed on mine. I bought a chromed 650SS primary case secondhand. I might have gone further but I needed the money fro re-chroming some bits. I already had chromed mudguards and stays on my 1959 99 ex-works so it looked very '650SS' !

Previously wrote:

Hi Anna. Yes there IS confusion as can be seen by other posts. That's why I mentioned the various 650 models to help clarify (?) things. Obviously you're not confused as you know everything!

All 650SS's I ever saw in the flesh or on test had chromed primary cases because they look flashy! It was the thing to do to have as much of your bike chromed as you could afford in the mid-late 1960s. I had the front engine plates, cover, top fork yoke, handlebar clamps and rear brake arm chromed on mine. I bought a chromed 650SS primary case secondhand. I might have gone further but I needed the money fro re-chroming some bits. I already had chromed mudguards and stays on my 1959 99 ex-works so it looked very '650SS' !

Hello Linoel I never mentioned anything at all about chroming , But The Standard and Delux machines were not chromed on the primary chaincase , and applies to some of the 650ss as well it all depended on the year they were built, .But the only Norton motorcycle that got more chrome work than any other Norton motorcycle Was the Norton Manxman 650 it also had its own silencers as well, not seen today , as no one as bother to make them,there expensive,! And why I know so much about this topic ,As I put the hours of study in to know about such things as the 650 models , and I have the Factory records kindly sent me too, and there much more to know about these machines, And what was , Doug Hele Bill Pincher ,and Charley Edwoods , doing in the years 1958 to 1960/1 on experimental machines some were know as the Domiracers ,but what were the other machines he was working on and why did they burn all his paper work on these machines, that the real question ! and were is the Pluto frame now! the first oil in the frame. concept ! and what other secrets are there! And I do strongly believe from a engineering point of veue ,That the Nomad was breath upon and the 1.75 journals were try out on some of these machines, There is no better concept to try them out on as these machine were built for very rough terrain like the desert on very long fast rides , yours Anna J Dixon

Hi Robert - sadly the shed was at my parents' council house and when my Mum left to go in a home there were very few of my original bike bits left - odds & ends from my 1955 88plus a tank panel and its PVC edging for my 99! Worth its weight in gold to me!

Anna - my contribution to this thread is all about chrome plated parts so I am staying on track about this aspect. All twins had the option of a chromed primary chaincase outer in the 1961/62 Parts List PS214 (which covers modelsES2, 50, 88, 99, 650 Std. & De Luxe). Parts List PS217 is for the 1961/62 "650cc" (no models mentioned but it lists twin carbs as standard, so I assume it is for a 650SS) and hada chrome primary outer as standard, not as an option. I have no Norton parts list which states that it's specificallyfor a 650SS, but this confirms my statement that all those I saw in 1962 had the chromed outer. The fact that I bought a secondhand one means that at least one bike didn't have one!

In the reprint collection of Dommmie reprints ('Performance Portfolio'), all USA road test bikes have chrome chain covers, and all of the UK bikes (including Atlas and 650SS) had black apart from specials like Dunsall machines. So if they tested factory bikes, it looks like 'normal' was black in UK and chrome in USA. From what Lionel says, customer's didn't necessarily agree.

I have an idea, how about getting some numbers off the frame and engine of this 650ss and confirming what year it actually is. I will confess that I do not have a 1965 parts book, I have earlier and later parts books, maybe there was not one for 1965 or maybe the bike is not even a 65' 650ss. I was invited to look at a 750 Atlas for sale before and when I got to the seller's residence I saw what he actually had was a 400 Electra! An extreme case, but anyone posting here should put the first three numbers of their bikes serial number, 101xxx for example up to help with finding information on it.

The chrome battery box and oil tank are not original for sure though, everyone agrees on that. Chrome was something everyone wanted on their bikes back in the 60s and 70s , it is not uncommon to find bikes where everything on them was chromed by the owner, even the entire frame and engine plates, I had a 60' Bonneville that was done so.

Although the extra chrome is a period-correct modification and/or accessory, the owner of this particular 650ss seems concerned with factory correctness, so I would go with what someone posted about the primary cover being BLACK in the 1964 parts book, because if the bike is actually a 1965, then that is the chronologically closest information that has been found in black and white. Since it is so very easy to change the primary at any time, it is something that you can take your time looking for and swap out when one becomes available at a flea market etc..

It is easy to find errors in factory literature, but it is an exception and not a rule, they are much better than most privately printed books on the Norton marque, and they CERTAINLY are much, much better than anyone's opinion or memory! Anyone using that shabby excuse to bolt any parts they want onto their bike is serving their self-interests and nothing else......

Who needs a shabby excuse to bolt any parts they want onto their bike? Or any excuse? My Norton does not look anything like it did when it left Bracebridge Street. It has had 40+ years of my changing its uses and appearance as suited me. No excuses, no apologies. Other than that, I am in full agreement with Benjamin's otherwise sensible and reasonable comments. Gordon.

Excellent suggestion by Benjamin. If we all posted the frame and engine numbers of bikes that we were referring to, many confusions would be avoided. (or for the paranoid enough digits for model/engine identification).

Previously wrote:

Who needs a shabby excuse to bolt any parts they want onto their bike? Or any excuse? My Norton does not look anything like it did when it left Bracebridge Street. It has had 40+ years of my changing its uses and appearance as suited me. No excuses, no apologies. Other than that, I am in full agreement with Benjamin's otherwise sensible and reasonable comments. Gordon.

Gordon, what I was referring to are the people who say that factory literature is not reliable as an excuse to say that their bike is factory original when it is not. For instance if someone told us that their Norton came from the factory with a Honda engine or something similarly non-sensical, and said it was not listed in the parts books because they are riddled with errors.

I have absolutely nothing against anyone building custom or special bikes or modifying them to their personal tastes, except when they claim originality for something that is clearly not....

Fair enough Benjamin!

On A model 7 forum I joined, they allow you to post pictures in the picture file, but the moderator requires you to create a file with the engine number. It helps in a number of ways, including helping with questions the machine owner may have in the future.

But as we have seen on this post (and others) the factory parts books have been wrong a number of times due to changes made after the book was printed & not corrected in the next parts book (I have 3 examples of this), typographical errors (I am sure we have all run across that one), & just wrong info , or specs printed in the first place (the commando books seem to be the worst on that issue for some reason). According to at least 2 dealer employees i have spoken to, if a customer wanted said bike in said color, or this bike with that upgrade from the factory, if the money was paid & the factory could get it done they did (within reason).

I was also in contact with a Norton employee who worked on assembly of the N15GS bikes & they ran out of a particular bolt, they had to meet a shipping deadline to get this batch to the USA &couldn'tget the "correct" bolts in time, so they went to a local industrial supply & used what was available (in the wrong plating). This happened a lot more than you might expect when manufacturing bikes on a budget 7 cant stock huge piles of inventory & you have to get acontainerof bikes packed up 7 on a ship bound overseas. Time is of the essence.

The factory parts book is probably the most accurate place to start, but not the holy grail by any means! As Ben mentioned earlier, check all the sources available & make decision from all the info.

Skip Brolund

Previously wrote:

I recently purchased a 1965 650SS and have a query regarding it's original tinware. This particular bike has a chromed primary chaincase and battery cover lid and as I am to begin some restoration to it's original build can anyone answer the following questions as I have conflicting images of how the bike was delivered in 1965 (probably a 1964 production model).

Would the bike have been supplied with any or all of these parts chromed.

a) Oil tank

b) Primarry chaincase cover

c) Battery box and lid

Any info would be appreciated and better still if you have any links to relevant images

Many thanks - David

David.

I am also restoring a barn find 1964 650SS I have used the picture of the 650SS at page 127 as a guide. But to add confusion as to what left the factory and what did not leave the factory according to Bacon, at page, 164 there was an option of painted mudguards.

Cheers Mick

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

I recently purchased a 1965 650SS and have a query regarding it's original tinware. This particular bike has a chromed primary chaincase and battery cover lid and as I am to begin some restoration to it's original build can anyone answer the following questions as I have conflicting images of how the bike was delivered in 1965 (probably a 1964 production model).

Would the bike have been supplied with any or all of these parts chromed.

a) Oil tank

b) Primarry chaincase cover

c) Battery box and lid

Any info would be appreciated and better still if you have any links to relevant images

Many thanks - David

David.

I am also restoring a barn find 1964 650SS I have used the picture of the 650SS at page 127 as a guide. But to add confusion as to what left the factory and what did not leave the factory according to Bacon, at page, 164 there was an option of painted mudguards.

Regarding Ben Gradler. Every time I have seen anything from him it has been rude: sufficient, in my opinion, to put people off joining the Norton Owners Club. Nothing seems to alter his attitude. As the Norton Owners Club is on organ to enhance the ownership of Norton motorcycles and encourage fellowship I suggest his membership should be refused. Perhaps the Committee can look at this?

Cheers Mick

Hello Mick Yes I do agree with this. But on the other hand your machine was built at Plumbstead in London . ask the records officer . yours anna j

Mick previously wrote:

Regarding Ben Gradler. Every time I have seen anything from him it has been rude: sufficient, in my opinion, to put people off joining the Norton Owners Club. Nothing seems to alter his attitude. As the Norton Owners Club is on organ to enhance the ownership of Norton motorcycles and encourage fellowship I suggest his membership should be refused. Perhaps the Committee can look at this?

Benjamin cares about Nortons and knows much about them. His posts are invariably accurate and to the point. His comments are occasionally somewhat abrasive but understandable given the stupidity of some of the questions that are asked. I vehemently dislike your suggestion.

Alan

I am all so interested in the years 1958 to 1961 Doug Hele, Bill Pincher, And Charley Edwards were Experimental Engineers. But what they were working on is very sketchy . there were other engines worked on, That No one knows about. and they were not many domiracer built ether. only a handful of about 6 or so. time as past on and the future Norton owners are going to know nothing much about these machines and what went on in the experimental departments. unless some off us have to brake all the rules in the book to get some information. it will be worth doing just this. so guys please put your thinking caps on . and write something . yours anna j