1962 650SS fuel tank colour

No, sorry. The only option was for Chrome plated mudgards, so says Roy Bacon.

The information found in the Bacon books has quite a few serious gaps. He mentions the 650 export models to Europe and the rest of the world but omits some of the finer detail such as the finish and model titles. For example, in some countries the 650SS was called the Manxman. In the USA, for a short while it was known as the Manxman Mark 2 (or Mk11). These were all basically the UK version of a 650SS but often had tanks not painted silver. Some having the Blue colour of the first Manxman mk 1 models, others with Metallic Red, Grey or Black. Both Police and Military models are noted in the NOC records so possibly White and camourflage colours might be added to the list. Bikes with Black tanks and enlarged battery boxes are mentioned throughout the records including a few built after the official end of production date of 1967.

The Norton factory, had the 'Rolls Royce' approach of building individual bikes to whatever spec the customer asked for......but at extra cost. So probably somewhere in this world there is a 650SS with a Pink tank!!!

Of possible interest to those people who like to argue about model production dates.......I recently unearthed some of the Factory Blue Prints covering the 650 range. They were dated June 1959. To those people without much knowledge of such items, these are the final plans printed prior to production taking place. So they generally turn up after mock-ups, prototypes and some testing has taken place. Which begs the question ......... just how far back, in time, does the 650 engine actually go?

Tom, just a thought as you make the point about 'show standard'....have you considered that the alternatives to silver tank might be EXPORT only and not HOME market ? I dont know any different I'm afraid but no other reply has raised this!.

regards JMB

Previously john_baker2 wrote:

Tom, just a thought as you make the point about 'show standard'....have you considered that the alternatives to silver tank might be EXPORT only and not HOME market ? I dont know any different I'm afraid but no other reply has raised this!.

regards JMB

Tom.

I too am restoring a 650SS ( 1964) which I found 20 months ago in a complete but rusty state.

I did a lot of research into the mudguard colours but with my house move my notes are somewhere amongst the many cardboard boxes in the garage with the mechanical bits of the bike.

For what it is worth I found several references to the 650SS having black mudguards with a silver tank and with the chromemudguards as an option If my memory serves me correctly I am sure one of the references confirming this point was in factory produced literature.If I find it over the nexr couple of weeks I will let you know. Cheers Mick

The information found in the Bacon books has quite a few serious gaps. He mentions the 650 export models to Europe and the rest of the world but omits some of the finer detail such as the finish and model titles. For example, in some countries the 650SS was called the Manxman. In the USA, for a short while it was known as the Manxman Mark 2 (or Mk11). These were all basically the UK version of a 650SS but often had tanks not painted silver. Some having the Blue colour of the first Manxman mk 1 models, others with Metallic Red, Grey or Black. Both Police and Military models are noted in the NOC records so possibly White and camourflage colours might be added to the list. Bikes with Black tanks and enlarged battery boxes are mentioned throughout the records including a few built after the official end of production date of 1967.

The Norton factory, had the 'Rolls Royce' approach of building individual bikes to whatever spec the customer asked for......but at extra cost. So probably somewhere in this world there is a 650SS with a Pink tank!!!

Of possible interest to those people who like to argue about model production dates.......I recently unearthed some of the Factory Blue Prints covering the 650 range. They were dated June 1959. To those people without much knowledge of such items, these are the final plans printed prior to production taking place. So they generally turn up after mock-ups, prototypes and some testing has taken place. Which begs the question ......... just how far back, in time, does the 650 engine actually go?

I can have a pink tank on my manxman ! it may go with the red seat cover , !!

The information found in the Bacon books has quite a few serious gaps. He mentions the 650 export models to Europe and the rest of the world but omits some of the finer detail such as the finish and model titles. For example, in some countries the 650SS was called the Manxman. In the USA, for a short while it was known as the Manxman Mark 2 (or Mk11). These were all basically the UK version of a 650SS but often had tanks not painted silver. Some having the Blue colour of the first Manxman mk 1 models, others with Metallic Red, Grey or Black. Both Police and Military models are noted in the NOC records so possibly White and camourflage colours might be added to the list. Bikes with Black tanks and enlarged battery boxes are mentioned throughout the records including a few built after the official end of production date of 1967.

The Norton factory, had the 'Rolls Royce' approach of building individual bikes to whatever spec the customer asked for......but at extra cost. So probably somewhere in this world there is a 650SS with a Pink tank!!!

Of possible interest to those people who like to argue about model production dates.......I recently unearthed some of the Factory Blue Prints covering the 650 range. They were dated June 1959. To those people without much knowledge of such items, these are the final plans printed prior to production taking place. So they generally turn up after mock-ups, prototypes and some testing has taken place. Which begs the question ......... just how far back, in time, does the 650 engine actually go?

well then that maybe what we have been looking for, Metalsence blue for export dominator's the manxman was a polychromatic blue . and polychromatic means more than one colour I do believe there is gold in the mix of colours in the paint mix and I have a bang on match of lotus pacific blue and gold base witch you spray the blue over the gold base it worked for me the trick is to not over do it with the lacquer and i used a Anti-ethanol lacquer in a spray can you have to pressurize the can on the under side pull ring, it does give a good finish but you may need more than one can to do the job in hand its also advisable too coat the inside of your tank with a Anti ethanol tank cure resin , some like Tank Cure, or Ethermate or Tapox tank sealants yours anna j

Previously phil_hannam wrote:

The information found in the Bacon books has quite a few serious gaps. He mentions the 650 export models to Europe and the rest of the world but omits some of the finer detail such as the finish and model titles. For example, in some countries the 650SS was called the Manxman. In the USA, for a short while it was known as the Manxman Mark 2 (or Mk11). These were all basically the UK version of a 650SS but often had tanks not painted silver. Some having the Blue colour of the first Manxman mk 1 models, others with Metallic Red, Grey or Black. Both Police and Military models are noted in the NOC records so possibly White and camourflage colours might be added to the list. Bikes with Black tanks and enlarged battery boxes are mentioned throughout the records including a few built after the official end of production date of 1967.

The Norton factory, had the 'Rolls Royce' approach of building individual bikes to whatever spec the customer asked for......but at extra cost. So probably somewhere in this world there is a 650SS with a Pink tank!!!

Of possible interest to those people who like to argue about model production dates.......I recently unearthed some of the Factory Blue Prints covering the 650 range. They were dated June 1959. To those people without much knowledge of such items, these are the final plans printed prior to production taking place. So they generally turn up after mock-ups, prototypes and some testing has taken place. Which begs the question ......... just how far back, in time, does the 650 engine actually go?

answer

May 1960 this is how far it goes this is from Burt Hopwood book , what happened to the motorcycle industry in a dinner meeting at the Ritz hotel and the plans layed out for the new machine between Joe Berliner and Burt Hopwood

Mike.......checkout the attachment....it is from the Norton Factory Drawings and may help with your research.

Hi Tom / Mike,

I have examples of the 62, 63, 64 and 65 UK brochures. For 650ss colours are listed as

- 62 / 63 - silver tank, black mudguards with chrome as option

- 64 / 65 - silver tank chrome mudguards.

Other optional extras listed are rev-counter, enclosed rear chainguard, safety bars, steering damper and folding kickstart lever

As regards the style of front mudguard 62 / 63 have the slim (normal) type mudguard and '64 on the wider deep valanced.Rear was always the same pattern deep valanced.

Although I am no expert I suspect Phil's Rolls Royce approach applied even at dealer level. My own 650ss is restored with

- Chrome front mudguards with black stays (I believe chrome stays are US market / Atlas spec)

- Primary chaincase chrome, probably USA market / Atlas spec with black being UK spec

- Chrome rear chainguard, probably USA market / Atlas spec with black being UK spec.

I assume that if a customer wanted chrome the dealer would chrome locally and if Norton ran out of black parts they fitted chrome to get them out of the door. I did mine like it is as I like the look.

Also I have twin paired chronometrics not the after thought rev counter mounting as is standard. Bacon does mention that some bikes left the factory in this spec from '63and there is a picture in his restoration guide of a road test Atlas with what appears to be that spec. Again I did mine like this as it is how Norton should have done it and I only saw the above mentioned picture after I had finished the bike.

I also have Dunlop alloy rims on mine but these are not listed as an option so whether they were on there from new I have no idea - I have only had it 30 years or so and they are staying.

Hope that this adds to the debate,

Graham

Graham.....There were loads of optional extras offered by the Factory that were not mentioned in the standard sales brochures. If, when hinting at a purchase, you mentioned that you were likley to use the bike for racing then a 'Clubmans' Optional Extras list would be poked under your nose by many dealers.

Alloy rims, Twin Leading Brake Plates, Polished Ports, were just a few of the items on this list. Once the Export Models were in regular flow, the Chromed bits and pieces, found on them, could be ordered and fitted by a dealer on new UK bikes. Usually with just a weeks prior notice or less. Some dealers also offered this as options on their second hand bikes. The favourites at the time were Chromed mudguards, Primary Outer and Chainguard. Later on Chromed Mudguards became standard and painted ones the option.

Of course the likes of Dresda, Dunstall and Kennedy all made a few bob out of selling their own special bits and services for many of the big twin Models. The Cafe Race look probably earning the most dosh for them in the 60s & 70s..

My first Slimline Dommie was a 1960 Model 99. I was the second owner. The first informed me that it came straight from the Norton factory ordered with a Canary Yellow tank and matching mudguards. The frame and all other painted parts were Black. The Logbook confirmed the colours and also listed it as a special.

The Sales Brochures are not always 100% accurate because they were often produced well before a models actual 'release to the public' date. Also the abreviation SS seems to have two meanings. Most of us understand it to stand for Sports Special but sometimes you see Super Sports used instead. The Japanese liked the term Super Sports.

Hi All,

I have a 61 650ss its stamped on the crankcase, and its in original Polychromatic blue, ie; just like a US Manxman but it was produced for our market, sold in Worcester, large tank, chrome primary case mudguards, chaincase, and headlight, ther have been some updates-ally wheels, commie front brake and concentric carbs but in essence is as it left the factory, so it would seem that polychromatic blue could be a choice of colour but I don't think many were built and all in late 61, with this colour.

BobP

To add fuel to the fire - or more information depending on your point of view - my "Spare Parts List for 1961/62" (PS 217) is for "Model 650cc". No mention of "SS". The really interesting part for us anoraks is that it was for a twin-carb bike. The front and rear mudguards and stays were chrome-plated as standard. No painted options. An optional chrome-plated outer primary chaincase was listed, as was a conversion kit to single carb! Other Optional Equipment included the usual front and rear crash bars, siamese exhaust pipes, air cleaners (for single or twin carbs), fully enclosed rear chaincases for 4" tyre or 3.50" tyre (2 different ones), rev counter, steering damper and Norton/Burgess silencer.(That's the non-handed type P/No.22790). Only a magneto is listed - no distributor and ancilliaries, so I think it's what we would refer to as a "650SS". I don't have a Parts List or Maintenance Manual for a 650SS.

When the 650SS first came out I only ever saw the black/silver/chrome versions at theEarl's Court Show and my local dealer, Lawton & Wilson (the famous racer Syd Lawton's shop). Norton used to name any customer variants as "Specials" For instance, my 1959 99 was a 'Special', according to John Hudson when I asked him for information just after I bought it in 1965. (Remember - a "99 Special" was one with two Cadbury's Flakes!) Ex-works it had the optional twin-carbs, chrome mudguards & stays, black frame, silver tank, enclosed rear chainguard, large inlet valves and HC pistons. Oddly enough it didn't have a folding kickstart, air cleaner or rev counter but the first owner had fitted a 'chair' so things may have been changed or removed. He certainly didn't have a clue about maintenance!

Cheers, Lionel

To add fuel to the fire - or more information depending on your point of view - my "Spare Parts List for 1961/62" (PS 217) is for "Model 650cc". No mention of "SS". The really interesting part for us anoraks is that it was for a twin-carb bike. The front and rear mudguards and stays were chrome-plated as standard. No painted options. An optional chrome-plated outer primary chain-case was listed, as was a conversion kit to single carb! Other Optional Equipment included the usual front and rear crash bars, Siamese exhaust pipes, air cleaners (for single or twin carbs), fully enclosed rear chain-cases for 4" tyre or 3.50" tyre (2 different ones), rev counter, steering damper and Norton/Burgess silencer.(That's the non-handed type P/No.22790). Only a magneto is listed - no distributor and ancillaries, so I think it's what we would refer to as a "650SS". I don't have a Parts List or Maintenance Manual for a 650SS.

When the 650SS first came out I only ever saw the black/silver/chrome versions at theEarl's Court Show and my local dealer, Lawton & Wilson (the famous racer Syd Lawton's shop). Norton used to name any customer variants as "Specials" For instance, my 1959 99 was a 'Special', according to John Hudson when I asked him for information just after I bought it in 1965. (Remember - a "99 Special" was one with two Cadbury's Flakes!) Ex-works it had the optional twin-carbs, chrome mudguards & stays, black frame, silver tank, enclosed rear chain guard, large inlet valves and HC pistons. Oddly enough it didn't have a folding kick-start, air cleaner or rev counter but the first owner had fitted a 'chair' so things may have been changed or removed. He certainly didn't have a clue about maintenance!

Cheers, Lionel

Right Well the First 650s all went to the USA, From 13/1/1961 to September of that year so what your looking at are part option for these machines Oddly in early 1962 some of the standard and De-luxe model were exported to the Soviet country's behide the iron curtain and the folding kick-start was standard on the 650 export models yours anna j

The 1961/62 Spare Parts book for the Norton 650 is a brilliant example of the confusion the factory caused by publishing information that does not make sense.

Check out the supposed 650 motor diagram between pages 4 & 5. In my copy of this book the engine looks more like that from a Model 7.

The parts lists inside also have some glaring gaps and mistakes. Ordering parts must have been a nightmare when you add in the range of models available.

The engine diagrams were the same up to P106/P for the Atlas, but that wouldn't stop you from identifying and ordering the correct parts. It's just the appearance that isn't correct.They were the same with frames and my 1959 Parts List PS 206 shows the earlier front brake plate, amongst other discrepancies. The diagrams were just "diagrammatic"!

Interestingly (or NOT! ) Parts List PS 214 covers the 1961/62 singles as well as twins 88, 99, 650 Std. & De Luxe. This is an earlier list than PS 217 and the twins are all only single carb.Chrome mudguards and primary outer chaincaseswere optional extras, as were HC pistons for 1949/61 88 & 99 Twins. (None listed for 650) Ialso noticed that the dualseat for 1961 was different for the 1962 models. By deduction, PS 217 for "Model 650cc" is for the 650 SS, or what would become it. PS 214 is for the standard models.

Whether or not a bike was for "export only" this far along in time is just a red herring. Some have been exported, imported and re-exported by now! Just try to identify the year and an appropriate parts list. Unlike most car manuals, Norton never did lists with diagrams of all the parts so it can make life a bit difficult. Don't forget there is always a built-in redundancy that I've found with bikes and cars, right up to my favourite Mk10 Jaguars - after a rebuild you always have some bits left over!

Cheers, Lionel

Previously phil_hannam wrote:

The 1961/62 Spare Parts book for the Norton 650 is a brilliant example of the confusion the factory caused by publishing information that does not make sense.

Check out the supposed 650 motor diagram between pages 4 & 5. In my copy of this book the engine looks more like that from a Model 7.

The parts lists inside also have some glaring gaps and mistakes. Ordering parts must have been a nightmare when you add in the range of models available.

John Hudson told me that the decision to build the 650 engine using the 99 style barrels, with higher compression pistons, was not good engineering. He and his Development/Tester colleagues correctly predicted the problems that occured with both pistons and barrels distorting under load and causing ring sealing failure. He said that this was one of the reasons for the 12 month delay in getting the 650 range out on sale with heaps of money being spent on finding solutions.

Previously phil_hannam wrote:

The 1961/62 Spare Parts book for the Norton 650 is a brilliant example of the confusion the factory caused by publishing information that does not make sense.

Check out the supposed 650 motor diagram between pages 4 & 5. In my copy of this book the engine looks more like that from a Model 7.

The parts lists inside also have some glaring gaps and mistakes. Ordering parts must have been a nightmare when you add in the range of models available.

yes Phil your right on this drawing its more like the model 7&88 and 1955/6 model 99 , but the 650 is a complete redesign on what went before, and the early 650 did have tight piston to barrel tolerances, as the top race tuner Fred Swift as noted , As for colours of the 650 there have been many over the years , And many play it save by using black and sliver but at the end of the day its up too you how much research you want to put in , too find the right colour for the year of the machine in question , And the information seams to be very Sketchy on this subject , And further more the Norton owner Club as not put much if any research into this question ether , they seam to of left it to us members to come up with some answers, yours anna j Dixon