1938 model 18 project

Hi Kevin

I think it is safe to assume that your mudguard will be almost identical to my 1937 CS1. The tail section engages on 2 spikes extending from the rolled edges of the main guard. It also sits on top of a flange welded to the underside of the guard. The number plate assembly is then placed on top of the tail section and is secured by 2 bolts which pass through the number plate assy, the tail section, and the flange of the main guard. There are large "repair or penny" washers on the inside of the guard so that the bolts do not pull through the large slots in the flange.

Hope this helps

Ian McD

A picture of the number plate assembly showing the large washers.

Previously kevin_robinson wrote:

After several months as time permitted I have completed assembly of my 1938 model 18 jigsaw puzzle. Managed to acquire many of the missing bits but one area has me stumped. The small section of the rearmudguard and how it's attached.The large section of the rear mudguard has an unpainted area on it's underside where some sort of bracket or reinforcement once resided. It appears this was of component of the mudguard and has no separate part number. The holes through the mudguard are rather large to just have bolts so I suspect some kind of bushing arrangement. I hoping someone can provide me with pictures to aid in reproducing the necessary componentsor even better find someone willing to sell me the parts I need. I have included a photo of what the bike currently looks like. Once I acquire all the parts a full restoration will begin.

THanks Kevin Robinson

My 1938 ES2 has a curved reinforcement plate fitted underneath both sections of the mudguard. I tried to take a photo but the wheels is close and its was unsuccessful. I will do my best to describe it.

The plate is about 5" long and 5/8" wide, 1/8" thick. It is curved to match the section of the mudguard with two holes in it for the number plate/rear mudguard section bolts. Two 1/2 square nuts are brazed or welded to the bracket and tapped 1/4" BSCY for the number plate bolts. This means when you remove the rear mudguard section you only have to slacken these bolts. The holes are offset on the width of the bracket so that it will only fit one way round (found from experience!).

Hope this helps!

Colin

Previously colin_mosley wrote:

Previously kevin_robinson wrote:

After several months as time permitted I have completed assembly of my 1938 model 18 jigsaw puzzle. Managed to acquire many of the missing bits but one area has me stumped. The small section of the rearmudguard and how it's attached.The large section of the rear mudguard has an unpainted area on it's underside where some sort of bracket or reinforcement once resided. It appears this was of component of the mudguard and has no separate part number. The holes through the mudguard are rather large to just have bolts so I suspect some kind of bushing arrangement. I hoping someone can provide me with pictures to aid in reproducing the necessary componentsor even better find someone willing to sell me the parts I need. I have included a photo of what the bike currently looks like. Once I acquire all the parts a full restoration will begin.

THanks Kevin Robinson

My 1938 ES2 has a curved reinforcement plate fitted underneath both sections of the mudguard. I tried to take a photo but the wheels is close and its was unsuccessful. I will do my best to describe it.

The plate is about 5" long and 5/8" wide, 1/8" thick. It is curved to match the section of the mudguard with two holes in it for the number plate/rear mudguard section bolts. Two 1/2 square nuts are brazed or welded to the bracket and tapped 1/4" BSCY for the number plate bolts. This means when you remove the rear mudguard section you only have to slacken these bolts. The holes are offset on the width of the bracket so that it will only fit one way round (found from experience!).

Hope this helps!

Colin

Just had a rummage, it is interesting that in the parts book it lists the bolts (pins) but not the nuts for the mudguard connection. In the WD 16H parts book it is the same but on the first page of this book which lists part number changes, this part is listed (no reason) as part number 3948. Was this a "whoops we missed this part" or was this because the number plate bracket design changed?

Colin

Is your reinforcement plate permanently attached to the main section of the guard? If so that may explain why it is not listed as a separate part. I suspect that my CS1 may have started off with captive nuts in the plate that can be seen in my first photo but at some stage they have been removed, hence the large slots that I now have. Maybe the bolts seized in the nuts and the easiest way to deal with the problem was to cut them out. I will never know for sure.

Cheers

Ian McD

Previously Ian MacDougall wrote:

Colin

Is your reinforcement plate permanently attached to the main section of the guard? If so that may explain why it is not listed as a separate part. I suspect that my CS1 may have started off with captive nuts in the plate that can be seen in my first photo but at some stage they have been removed, hence the large slots that I now have. Maybe the bolts seized in the nuts and the easiest way to deal with the problem was to cut them out. I will never know for sure.

Cheers

Ian McD

Hi Ian

My plate is separate. I don't think that it was welded. I cannot see any signs. The main mudguard has a lip to locate the plate and stop it slipping down, hence it will only fit one way.

Colin

What super pictures. It's a mystery to me how you manage to post them. Mine are refused for being too big.

Richard, you have to use photo editing software to reduce the size of the image before posting (max size for this site is 1Mb). There are many photo editing packages available for PC & Phone/Tablet, many of them are free. Most, if not all, will have a resizing facility. Whichever one you choose you have to get familiar with it. Like most things the first couple of photos you resize will be tricky but you will soon get the hang of it. You may need a younger, patient person to help! Some of our members have worked out how to include the photos in the text but I have not experimented with that yet. Sorry Kevin, this should be a whole new thread.

Ian McD

Previously Ian MacDougall wrote:

Richard, you have to use photo editing software to reduce the size of the image before posting (max size for this site is 1Mb). There are many photo editing packages available for PC & Phone/Tablet, many of them are free. Most, if not all, will have a resizing facility. Whichever one you choose you have to get familiar with it. Like most things the first couple of photos you resize will be tricky but you will soon get the hang of it. You may need a younger, patient person to help! Some of our members have worked out how to include the photos in the text but I have not experimented with that yet. Sorry Kevin, this should be a whole new thread.

Ian McD

Many thanks for the tips

pixlr.com/express is easy to use for reducing the size of the pictures.

Apologies for hijacking the thread.

Gents

a few years ago I spent a lot of time researching period material for the restoration of a 1938 CS1.

Motorcycle, Sept 3rd 1936 shows all the details of the new Norton's for 1937.

There is a very clear drawing 'The improved method of attachment for the detachable section of the rear mudguard'

It is exactly as the photo of Ian's mudguard sections. The only difference is no penny washers, but the curved plate as on Colin's bike. No nuts fixed to the underside of the curved plate or anywhere else, the plate must be threaded to take the 1/4" bolts, possibly the bolt tips may be burred over so you don't loose the bolts, which may explain why there are no separate small parts listed. The end of the main mudguard has a narrow lip folded over at 90 degrees for the curved plate to 'catch' in front of, once the bolts are tightened up, to stop the tail section sliding off.

Hope this helps.

Roger

As Roger points out, Ian's mudguard is of the 1937-on type which appeared with the twin-point fixing number plate bracket. This new bracket was lighter gauge and featured a swaged edge. The earlier single-point bracket was a much heavier thing and relied on this for its strength.

Certainly on the later type, the reinforcing bar underneath seems to have threaded inserts.

Prior to 1937, the tail had a small ribbed section but this was deleted with the later fixing, although the main guard remained ribbed.

I'm afraid that I don't know how the earlier tail fitted which doesn't help Kevin much.

Kevin,

You could take a look at the guards offered by British Only Austria.

http://www.vintage-motorcycle.com/index.php?language=en&site=4&pid=28&id=26759&gesucht=true&marke=norton&nummer=&beschreibung=mudguard

I'm fairly sure this is a repro item, looks about right but the dimensions quoted don't tally with my guard.

Cheers

Ian McD

The WD Models used the earlier type up until 1938 so of course all the wartime spares had the later fixing and they do turn up in khaki from time to time. The biggest problem is that they progressively shortened the tail piece and there are at least three different lengths so be very careful.

The pre-war type had quite a distinctive kick-out at the point of the tail. Those intended for fitment without number plate and simply the WD rear lamp are quite short and rounded.

A post on the WD Norton forum might be worthwhile. There are a few people putting pre-war WD bikes back to early spec and they are perhaps quite likely to be removing later tailpieces.

Previously kevin_robinson wrote:

Gents plenty of information has been gained. First my tail section is pre 1937 which explains why I have had a hard time understanding it's attachment. So I now have a new problem, do I send it to my metal worker and have it transformed into a post 37 version. I would really hate to alter a part that someone could use. In the same breath I also understand how rare original mudguards are so I expect finding the correct one very unlikely. If anyone knows of someone looking for a pre 37 and has a post 37 rear section I'm willing to trade. Otherwise it will be altered when I start to restore this bike. I have one other question where can I review the Motorcycle Sept. 3 1936 article.

Thanks

Kevin

Hi Kevin

I require a pre 37 tail piece and will look into my spares to see if I have the post 37 part you require.

Regards

Andy

Kevin

Just seen your note at the end - not sure how this can be done securely, but with an email address I can scan and send you a copy of the 2 page 1936 'Motorcycle' article.

Roger

Here is a photo of the rear guard partly released from my 1937 16H.

The two bolts each have one standard and one 'penny' washer. The loose bar is threaded.

There is therefore no reason to remove the bolts (and risk losing them by the roadside) when releasing the mudguard. Mine aren't burred over - but I suspect (sadly) they are not original since Norton ones would have had domed tops.

The loose bar is the one that Richard posted a picture of.

Thanks David for posting that picture, it really pulls together all the elements that have ben described by the various contributors. All that my CS1 is missing is the curved bar, which shouldn't be too difficult to reproduce. Despite various references to the curved bar I was thinking that my mudguard must have lost captive nuts attached to the guard itself, as used on Norton guards in the fifties. To further complicate things I have a spare tail-piece that looks like the post 37 type but the profile is slightly shallower and doesn't mate up with the 37 guard. I assume there must have been at least one more change to the guard profile (and number plate assembly) sometime in the forties?

Cheers, Ian McD