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1930 model 18 ignition timing

Submitted by carl_sanders on Sat, 14/05/2016
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Can someone please give me advice on the timing of a 1930 model 18.

The bike is a real pig to start if at all.

Engine timed exactly.

Compression is great, inlet 0.006 exhauste 0.010

Newly rebuilt mag (DH Day), carb set perfect No4 slide 160 main, notch 3 on needle new lead tested, new plug (Champion D9). I even sat it in an ultrasonic tank overnight yesterday so I know its clean and not blocked.

I believe the ignition timing to be 1/2" BTDC fully advanced so set exact by DTI all I get is a "pop" and basically thats it.

Am I right at 1/2" BTDC full advance before I take a hammer to the bloody thing

Submitted by john_cole1 on Sun, 15/05/2016

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Carl, I have the same model for 30 years, but set my ignition with the mag fully retarded and the piston at TDC on the compression stroke. Probably not the best for outright performance but these are 85 year old bikes. Try putting a thimble full of fuel in via the plug hole, if it starts then dies you know it's a carb issue. To start normally, I give it half advance, flood a touch, don't open the throttle and kick it. I always had trouble starting mine till an old boy came over one night and proceeded to start it first kick!

Warm wishes John.

Submitted by carl_sanders on Sun, 15/05/2016

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Thank you John very decent of you to reply I will give it a try next week

It is just a case of seeing what it likes. I have had the carb off again last night and put new seals and a needle in...again! and checked the orofices clear all to be just to be sure in my mind I was not missing something.

I ordered a couple of new plugs off of "tinternet"so will put one in when they arrive.

I will time her again to your specification over the course of the week if I get time so hopefully next saturday we should be up and running.

Thank you again Sir and I will keep you posted.

Submitted by david_cooper on Sun, 15/05/2016

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On the Norton singles i've ridden I tickle the carb as usual but then put a couple of fingers loosely over the bellmouth and kick the motor over a couple of times using as little decompressor as possible. To make sure fuel has been sucked right inside. Then the usual sequence of up to TDC, decompress to get just past, prod and hope. I've seen riders do the same on film but never seen it written in the usual instructions. Your ignotion advance setting won't make any difference since you should be starting on half retrard anyway unless you want a broken Achilees tendon.Do you have other experience of singles? Or are you battling it out alone?RegardsDavid

Submitted by carl_sanders on Mon, 16/05/2016

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Hi David,Its just me, the garage and occasionally the cat...well till it backfires anyway then its just me. The cat just vanishes for some reason!!I have a 1941 16H WD starts first time, a 1946 Model 18 which is a dream to get running and a 1954 500T which starts after a few kicks. I have never had snags before timing since I made a fitment on the lathe that sits in the plug and makes use of a slide pin and a DTI. I use the thin paper method between the points along with a home made sounder that gives an audiable sound the second the points open so that takes care of that.My literature says 1/2" BTDC for 1930 but another book said 5/16" BTDC??Its just this one as I cannot just seem to find that perfect sweet spot. I am going to check the timing again setting just under 1/2" BTDC full advance and work my way down slightly time after time till she starts with ease. I am going to turn a fitment for the plug tomorrow so my slide device and DTI give 100% accuracy.I have eliminated the lead, the mag has a great spark tonight with a spare plug off my 500T so I will try again when my new Champion D9 arrives off of "tinternet" wednesday.The carb is a 76 1 1/16" that I have rebuilt twice now and had in an ultrasonic bath overnight so all orofices are clear. New needle and jets last night and just to be on the safe side I may stick it on my other 18 to see how it runs on that..... may give a decent ball park set up.I am in no rush but it would be nice to go for a potter about as the weather is nice at the moment.Am I also correct on using straight 30s oil on this bike as I use 40s on all the others but with the drip feed I felt a thinner oil may be better?

Submitted by george_phillips on Mon, 16/05/2016

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I had a similar prob with my 55 ES2. The thing that finally sorted it was minimal tickle (one quick push), ignition retarded about half way, air lever closed and DON'T TOUCH THE THROTTLE. Back against compression, lift exhaust. kicxk start slightly past comprssion then one god swinging kick and off it goes. Took me six months to work it out. George

Submitted by david_cooper on Mon, 16/05/2016

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I wish I had that collection...re timing..it still should not affect starting unless it's miles out, should it? Do you intend to start on full advance? But if you have three others that's not likely. Unless you have a ferocious kick and wear diving boots. I witnessed a man breaking a tendon that way.Hopefully it 's just a plug. 'They' say today's plugs don't have glaze on the ceramic nose so if they get sooted up they can't be cleaned properly.As for oil! What fun! Another oil discussion! For what it's worth (possibly not much) I'd use something thick for an old high clearance motor. At least 40 and maybe 50. Especially with slightly hit and miss delivery.David

Submitted by dan_field on Tue, 17/05/2016

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Forgive me for asking the obvious, but it your mag slack or tight on full advance? I got mine the wrong way around and needless to say didn't start!

Dan

Submitted by carl_sanders on Tue, 17/05/2016

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Well tonight was the final straw!

New plug, re timed tried all advice given above and still nothing. full advance, no advance 1/2" BTDC at TDC you name it I have tried it

Kickstart has now snapped where the f**K I will find one god knows and to top it all rear stand bent beyond repair and I aint fitting any Indian shit! so enough is enough.

I have decided to cut my losses dismantle to each component and try to sell as spares to recouperate some cash...the bike has a bad vibe about it as if it is trying to tell me something. I have never had a bike not even attempt to start in over 40 years....its a peice of shit and I wish I had never bought it now.

Thanks for all your advice guys at least we tried

Submitted by dan_field on Tue, 17/05/2016

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Don't give up it will be something simple. Other things to try, right number of teeth on mag sprockets? Valve timing?

And to make you feel better, this what I have to fix after last weekends racing!

photo image_zpspz75fq8i.jpeg

Submitted by carl_sanders on Wed, 18/05/2016

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Before I bought it It ran and did London to Brighton so I think it must be me! I am going to stick it back in the barn and forget about it for a while until I can muster some interest again.

According to one member I am racist or a member of the BNP now too as I commented on Indian made Norton bits being shit?? Sorry they are superb and we should all be fitting them and giving the NHS some trade by killing ourselves.

Some people really need to get a life and stop reading into things and help themselves and the rest of the World by actually stop thinking for a while.

Submitted by robert_tuck on Wed, 18/05/2016

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Out of desperation I bought some Indian control levers for an early 30's bike. The nipple holes were too small the cable, slots also, the pivots made of weak brass had to be re-made, the pivots were loose and needed shimming, the clamps were too big and the design different to the advert photo. Brilliant!, got my money back but kept the levers and re-engineered them.Lesson learnt?, No, bought some Emgo brake shoes that seem to make the bike go faster!.

Submitted by carl_sanders on Mon, 23/05/2016

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Well I now believe in divine intervention.

After weeks of the bike not starting I thought I would try again tonight for some strange reason.

Muttered "come on old girl or words to that effect.....

Same fuel, same tickle, same advance position, same plug etc etc and it started first time! It runs like a dream after slight carb adjusting and oil pump drip regulation (piper alpha appeared under the bike). Why did it start? I do not know as nothing has changed.

So thats it. I thank you all for your help and advice...its a good feeling knowing people are willing to help.

Oh and to say please before attempting to start!!

Submitted by charles_claxton on Mon, 23/05/2016

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An ending straight out of HollywoodSmile

(Not BollywoodSurprised)

Nice it all ends happily ever after (cue: Sunset, disappearing rider etc,)

 


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