Mr Franks would be referri…
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No George your 120cc per 4…
No George your 120cc per 40 miles is not normal. I just found the Franks oil consumption figure and found it outrageous by today's standards!. Try getting that past environmentalists today.
My tests show about 7cc per 40 miles which I feel is OK but still makes mess after a while.
Trying to hand ream a relatively short bush where the diameter is nearly the same as it's length accurately is very difficult without supporting the reamer, either by using a pilot in the other bush or as you suggested, by holding the reamer in a pillar drill to steady it as it opens the bush.
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If the PRV is open, or lea…
If the PRV is open, or leaking, there will be a lot more than mist in the timing case. I suspect that is where my 19S problems lie, to be investigated over the winter. Flow from my timing bush is around 100ml per 100 miles but I am starting to think it is not directly proportional to distance travelled. Almost sure that a 150 mile run does not produce double the amount of oil of a 75 mile run. Might be temperature related - it takes quite a while to heat up the contents of the oil tank. At higher temperatures might the oil pressure drop and so the PRV more likely to remain closed? I am also thinking that it might be interesting to try a 200 mile run with a lower viscosity oil (less resistance to flow so lower pressure?) and see if that reduces the output. Anyway more interesting things to think about - the Manx beckons!
Ian McD
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its funny mine doesn't le…
its funny mine doesn't leak a drop. most of my oils leaks are from the g/box. anyway good luck with it George.
Barry
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Interest ing thinking, Ian…
Interesting thinking, Ian. Outside the box! Conventional thinking would say higher viscosity as it would be less likely to get through the small gap! BTW - Stop showing off with your Manx!!ð
George
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Aah, but if there is no oi…
Aah, but if there is no oil to be pushed through the gap because the PRV stays closed....That should read Manx GP, or Classic TT if you insist.
Ian McD
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Barry - are you sure the d…
Barry - are you sure the drain pipe is clear ? If your's doesn't leak then it shows it's achievable. How does your t/chain look?
All the best for the Manx, Ian, I'm not going this year.
George
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George, the oil drain pipe…
George, the oil drain pipe is clear i can play a tune on it. i fitted a new timing chain not so long ago. just a thought on your bush. instead of a reamer could you run a fine grade flap wheel through the bush fixed in your stand drill. just to ease it out. used with some form of lubricant.
Barry
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I've never heard of that…
I've never heard of that being done, Barry. It sounds a little crude against the fineness of a reamer but what do I know! Would it be accurate? Have others done it?
George
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yes George probably a bit…
yes George probably a bit of over kill . see if you could just hone it out to size with one of those small honeing tools.
Barry
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I don't have any experien…
I don't have any experience with the 1938 pattern engines but on the earlier and WD motors, the inlet cam bush in the timing cover is indeed different from the other three and clearly has a scroll which does not extend for the full length.
It is visibly different when in situ but I don't know to what degree the later engine differed.
For 1937, part numbers were 3685 and 3686 and for 1938 8838 & 8839...unfortunately, Norton's decision to completely change the part number system for 1946 (although engines were unchanged) makes it difficult to compare.
Attachments late-type-inner-2-jpg- Log in to post comments
56, 19s outer timing cover…
56, 19s outer timing cover inlet cam bush in the photo. where it differs i dont know but similar groove
Attachments cam-bush-jpg- Log in to post comments
That's interesting, Barry…
That's interesting, Barry. The scroll clearly doesn't extend through but from the thrust face, this later bush could easily be mixed with the exhaust / crankcase bushes.
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Interesting that the thrus…
Interesting that the thrust end of the bush posted by Richard is entirely different and doesn't have the slots in the face to allow oil into the scroll. The grooves in the one posted by Barry don't seem to be of a spiral form but this may just be the photo.
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This is a very interesting…
This is a very interesting line. Many thanks guys.
Looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and remove the timing cover to check the scroll on the bush - despite it being technically the correct one.
George
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Bullet bitten! After showi…
Bullet bitten! After showing the timing drive sprocket who was boss - with the aid of my industrial hairdryer, a tyre lever and a mallet (I know, I know, but I couldn't get the sprocket puller behind the sprocket) I finally got it all off. I attach a pic of the inlet cam bush. It is correct inasmuch as it has a part oil way. The oilway is straight. I still suspect poor reaming. It's also a poor pic. The inlet cam bush is the lighter of the two. Note the angle of the slots. Does this have any bearing (hoho) on the issue? To answer Ian McD query there is a gasket behind my oil pump see pic 2. Not sure this has moved me forward?
Oops it won't accept the pics. The V-grooves on the inlet bush are at 9 0'clock and 3 o'clock. In the exhaust they're at 12 and 6. The other pic simply shows Ian McD a blue gasket between the rear face of the oil pump and the crankcase.
George
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I posted this a little whi…
I posted this a little while ago. The extractor worked a treat.
https://www.nortonownersclub.org/noc-chat/technical1-singles-forum/696198693?b_start=0#971787453
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In attempting to readjust…
In attempting to readjust the prv setting the housing round the prv shattered. I now need a new timing cover. See new thread. Things going from bad to worse.
George
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There's one on ebay but i…
There's one on ebay but it's the distributor type. May be worth it to get you out of trouble?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-NORTON-SINGLE-TIMING-CHEST-DISTRIBUTOR-TYPE-ES2-MODEL-50-ETC/253831895576?hash=item3b198f5a18:g:bZIAAOSw8W1bgdZ2
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Thanks Ian. Not sure of th…
Thanks Ian. Not sure of the bidding process but have to say it's the first t/cover I've seen for sale. Many thanks.
G
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Previously ian_soady wrote…
Previously ian_soady wrote:
There's one on ebay but it's the distributor type. May be worth it to get you out of trouble?
Ian Do you happen to know what the difference is between the cases?
Ian C
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I don't actually know but…
I don't actually know but suspect it's just the treatment of the top end of the chaincase where the distributor would be bolted on.
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I have looked at old pictu…
I have looked at old pictures of mag ones and dizzy-equipped models, and they appear the same, but of course, that is without close examination. My guess is that they may differ in the mounting arrangements of the mag and distributor, in which case one would hope a relatively simple mod may do the job.
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Yes, of course with the ma…
Yes, of course with the magdyno there is no actual connection between the mag and the chaincase.
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We now have pictures of bo…
We now have pictures of both, showing the differences, for anyone's future reference.
Attachments es2-timing-case-magneto-model-jpg- Log in to post comments
OK, it only let me load on…
OK, it only let me load one......
Attachments es2-timing-case-distributor-model-jpg- Log in to post comments
Don't look too different…
Don't look too different to me although obviously the hole for the distributor one is bigger.
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The dizzy one may work, bu…
The dizzy one may work, but he has to win it first. Best George gets his welded up, thread re-cut and he is away.
Anyway there is another thread running on it now.
Ian
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Just to tidy up the origin…
Just to tidy up the original thread, when I finally got the prv adjusting screw out (it was solid) I found it had been screwed right down with a tiny piece of spring under it. I doubt the ball ever lifted at all. That would mean a very high oil pressure. Maybe hence my oily engine? This could have been contributory - combined with poor reaming - to the oil leakage into the t/chain case.
George
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Oh bugger! Mine was a pita…
Oh bugger! Mine was a pita to get out as well, I totalled the screw but fortunately not the case - Russell motors had the screw and spring in stock, but this was last year.
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I don't think high oil pr…
I don't think high oil pressure would be the culprit as it's (almost) all going to the big end. When the ball lifts. it lubricates the timing gear. It's possible that the lack of this latter may have resulted in excessive bush wear?
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Could be, Ian, but then ho…
Could be, Ian, but then how come so much was passing through the bush if it wasn't getting into the timing chest. An enigma, wrapped in a mystery inside a puzzle. Or whatever the great man said.
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Here's a thought. If the…
Here's a thought. If the prv spring is knackered the ball will lift under very little pressure so excess oil will be sprayed into the timing case. The good book states "The oil collects in the timing case to such a level that the oil pump is immersed, carrying oil to the half timng pinion and the timing gears." Thus if excess oil is entering the timing case it is feasible that it could fill to the level of the inlet cam and then out through the bush into the timing chaincase.
There is a hole into the crankcase almost level with the timing pinion which may be a "timed" breather from the crankcase. Does it draw the oil into the crankcase on the upstroke? This would effectively drain the timing case down to that level.
I've had a precision engineering firm tell me that the bush/spindle fit on my inlet camshaft is fine. Although having got it all apart I have to say that the bushes in the crankcase are not brilliant. So back to square one.
George
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According to the Norton ma…
According to the Norton manual, "the level [in the timing chest] is controlled by a hole drilled in the case, the overflow draining to the base of the crankcase".
No timed breather, just simple overflow, I guess through the hole you mention.
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I wondered that, Ian, but…
I wondered that, Ian, but thought that any oil trying get out (of the timing case) would be blown back every time the piston came down?
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In fact pursuing that thou…
In fact pursuing that thought, does the timing chest become pressurised every time the piston descends? If so where does the excess pressure relive itself? Through the camshaft bushes!!
George
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The crankcase breather on…
The crankcase breather on the left hand side of the crankcase should take care of that as the passage is bigger than the one into the timing chest. But of course there will be some pressure as you say.
You may be falling into the trap of over-thinking this - one I'm very prone to myself.
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Overthinking - you could b…
Overthinking - you could be right Ian. But just to see if I'm on to something - I have previously removed the ball from the left had side c/case vent. This means on the up stroke the air will be drawn in through that vent. This will reduce the amount of air/oil drawn in through the timing case drain hole which in turn could allow the oil level to raise to a level where it percolates out through the camshaft bush. Could that be why the Norton engineers fitted the "non-retrn valve" ball on the c/case vent?
George
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I have also considered bre…
I have also considered breathing issues in relation to the leak from my 19S camshaft bush. I probably mentioned this before but I have tried the standard breather with ball, a straight through connector with open end, and the same connector with Enfield "Duck Bill". None of them made any noticeable difference to oil flow. This doesn't prove that it is not a breather issue. The purpose of the ball is to expel air from the crankcase on the downstroke and prevent air entering on the upstroke. Ideally this would create a partial vacuum in the cases. Without positive pressure in there oil leakage should become less likely. Other breathing arrangements have been discussed on this forum, including the use of a 2-stroke reed valve and an additional breather from the rocker box tappet cover. If the camshaft bush leak is driven by crankcase pressure these ideas should help, but I haven't yet tried them.
An unlikely possibility but I'll suggest it anyway: could there be any variation in the position or size of the hole that drains the timing case oil back to the crankcase? I guess George's case is still open so if anyone else is able to take a pic of that area a comparison might be useful.
Ian McD
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George, I have rummaged an…
George, I have rummaged and found my spare timing case, being my spare I need to be convinced to let it go! Iâm building a M50 from bits and need some parts, notably the spindles, axle, speedo drive and spacers etc for a full width rear hub and tinware, have you got anything to tempt me?!
Dan
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In a word, No, Dan. Apols.…
In a word, No, Dan. Apols. But I'm having the timing case oil prv boss built up and re-tapped. I'm simply trying to find out through this thread why I get so much oil out of the timing chain compartment.
I cant' seem to get my pics to load, Ian. They are too "good". Or put another way, too may bytes. I don't know how to reduce them.
George
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Do you use a photo hosting…
Do you use a photo hosting website? Itâs easier that way.
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I use a free program calle…
I use a free program called pixresizer. Very easy to use and works very well.
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Just to bring this (long)…
Just to bring this (long) thread up to date - I had the pressure relief valve boss (which I broke trying to remove the "pressure relief ball screw") built up with some alloy welding, then re-tapped to the correct thread. I then fitted a prv assembly (screw, spring and ball) and set it to 1.5 turns from shut and put it all back together.
Following further fettling to other parts I've finally had a test run over ten miles and can now report that the oil relief from the timing chain cover is nominal.
I must conclude that the old prv (which had a deformed spring and was a bit sticky) was inoperative resulting in excess oil being permanently relieved into the timing chest and hence - via the inlet camshaft bush - into the timing chain case.
Many thanks for all your inputs
George
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Nice one George. At 102 po…
Nice one George. At 102 posts, this thread has run and run ! Luckily the singles sub-forum is a well behaved and friendly place
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Mr Franks would be referring to burning oil not leaking!
I was just reading an interview with J E Moore regarding the design of the Dominator in which he was asked about the oil pump and whether there was a non- return valve. His answer? "Oil just does not leak past the gears in the Norton pump". Interviewing techniques were clearly more gentlemanly in those days as the journalist accepted this without comment.....