1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Not sure about the headlight but I bought a remanufactured seat from Bantam John, it was about £100 I think, not perfect, I think it sits a bit high but seems to be well made, I think Leightons do them too.

dan

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

â?the spindle clamping pinsâ?

What's that? Sorry I couldn't translate it into something meaningfull in German

Fritz

Ah a bush for the tappet adjusters?! I have never looked at mine but would have thought they'd come out with heat.

Hello Ulrich,

To the best of my knowledge there are no bushes fitted in the cylinder head. It is more likely that your Jubilee heads are early heads (1959 - 1963) and your new Navigator heads are later heads (1963 - on). I am fairly certain that the later head uses a larger diameter spindle clamping pin. I think the change occurred with the introduction of the Electra in 1963. So what you need are the later spindle clamping pins but I don't know if these are available so making some bushes might be the best solution.

Patrick

Hi Ulrich,

That's good news that your new heads and barrels are matching spigot types. It is highly likely that the change in diameter of the spindle clamping pins occurred earlier than the change to the non-spigot heads/barrels. I have had a look at a 1959/60 Jubilee head on my bench and I do not see any bush. I have the Norton Spare Parts Lists for 1959 and 1961/62 and no bush is shown there - but both lists give the same part number for the 'spindle clamping pin'. I haven't got any later lists to check the part number for the later pin.

I have 2 Jubilees -1959 De Luxe and 1961 Standard- and 2 Navigators - a De Luxe and a Standard -both 1961. It is amazing how they differ in minor details. You asked about the steering lock; early Navigators and Jubilees didn't have steering locks but later models (about 1964 ?) did have.

Anyway the best of luck with your rebuild.

Patrick

I've just checked my stash of Jubilee cylinder heads, I have heads with both sizes of clamping bolt, but looking at my bottom 2 pictures I wonder if Ulrich is talking about the rocker spindle bush?

Hi Dan,

Yes I would agree with your bottom two photos as well. Ulrich quoted the part number as 20849 for the early 'spindle clamping pin'which agrees to the 1959/1961 Spare Parts Lists. This phrase "spindle clamping pin" is how Norton phrased it in the original Spare Parts List. It is simply the clamping bolt.

Apparently there was a reason why Norton uprated the clamping bolt to the quarter inch size ; if the Jubilee engine was regularly taken up to valve bounce- around 9000 rpm- the original bolt could slacken off and the push rod could jump off the ball of the rocker. I presume that Norton had quite a few warranty claims for damaged engines. It has happened to me but strangely enough nothing in the engine actually broke !. I could ride the bike home on the one working cylinder and simply readjusted the tappets, relocked the clamping bolt and all was well.

Patrick

Ulrich, I'll have a look in my box of bits!

That's pretty common, mine is a flat aluminium plate too but with no sump plug, they were replaced because they distort easily. The club sells the gauze filter it's attached to flat piece of lead that acts as the gasket to the plate.

Ive fitted an external oil filter anyway, I attached it to the rear of the central channel at the bottom, but I'm using an aluminium mudguard which means I can make room. I,m not sure how far an original mudguard extends below the swing arm?

Dan

deleted by

Fritz

Ulrich,

I don't think that is original, there is a pic of the club one in the spares section

dan

Hi Ulrich,

I agree that this is not original. The original prop stand was an optional extra and as far as I know was BOLTED to the bottom stud where the front down tube meets the bottom frame rails. The mounting bracket for yours appears to be welded on to the bottom frame rail. If you look at the Norton Spare Parts List you can see why someone welded on the bracket where they did.

I don't think I have ever seen a Jubilee or Navigator with the original stand. Only one of mine has a side stand and that's not an original.

Patrick

Hi Ulrich,

To the best of my knowledge the Navigator originally came out late in 1960 and was described as being a 1961 model and there were no such thing as paint codes then.

Black and dove grey was certainly a Navigator De Luxe colour for 1961 as I have a 1961 De Luxe, My Standard Navigator is painted polychromatic red with a black frame - I know this is actually a later colour (about 1963/64) so I expect polychromatic blue was also from this later year. The polychromatic red is a metallic colour and Rover Nightfire Red is a pretty close match or so I have been told.

Maybe someone else can give you a better answer.

Patrick.

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

The frame parts are back from powdercoating .

Now in dove gray aka RAL 1013 pearl white.

Engine is back in the frame.

Unfortunatly one barrel has a crack which I found out after sandblasting. I can use a sleeve from the NOC shop but the engine specialist wants 200.- Euros for the work to fit it into the cylinder.

And I still have no pistons for it.

Hi, there is a pair of +10 pistons on the Web site NOC Shop, or I think if you offer Dan a bun he might have a pair for sale. My advice would be if you see it and it looks part right -buy it. Navigator parts are almost as rare as hens teeth. You will find people say "hard to find", that is an understatement... I was lucky and my engine builder happened to have a pair of +30s. If it were not for him I would have bought the liners and +10s. currently Navigator pistons over +10 are pushing £140 or so each - eek.

Hi Ulrich,

That looks a superb job painting the frame -there are so many separate little bits. Why did you take the centre stand apart ?

Patrick

Hi Ulrich,

As Fritz and you probably have the only two Navigators in Germany I doubt if anyone will ever query your colour match - so if you are happy that is all that matters. I can't remember the last time I saw a lightweight Norton in blue,- maybe Andy Sochanik could give you an opinion as he has had his Navigator for very many years. I can't remember what colour his Navigator is.

Patrick.

There's a pic of him with a blue navi somewhere I've seen it! There was a very original blue one at Bristol last year too. My jubilee had a blue frame and silver tank, looked cool to me, but I was only 17!

Ah his is blue and black https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=blue+navigator+norton&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=isvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYufK9lMzPAhUnJMAKHTCEC9MQ_AUIBygB&biw=1024&bih=649#imgrc=Js9DD6WQ8lYzBM%3A

Not seen a blue and cream on either.

Dan

In the pictures Andy's bike looks to be the later colours - polychromatic blue and a black frame; later silencers as well. I think these came in about October 1962 (officially the 1963 model). For the 1961 model year the Standard Navigator was 'blue' and had the Dove Grey frame. Atlantic blue was certainly a possibility as this colour was used on some models of the Dominators.

The Polychromatic paint is a metallic paint and applied as a base coat and lacquer over a silver or gold ? base colour. It is not an easy paint to spray but it gives a superb finish when properly applied.

Hi Ulrich,

I think that is not the best place to mount the powerbox as it is too close to the carburettor intake. Best to keep electrics as far away from petrol as possible. Dan has fitted a powerbox on his bike so hopefully he will be along soon to say where he fitted it. I have the rectifier on mine mounted on the back of the channel section -i.e facing the back mudguard and a zenor diode mounted on a heat sink under the headlight.

Do you think the Wipac rotor will work OK with the Commando stator? I know you can mix some Lucas and Wipac parts. Anyway you can always fit the Wipac stator.

Patrick

Ulrich, Try rubbing down the powder coating with coarse Wet n Dry paper to expose the frame number but do this with much caution. The number is normally stamped more deeply on early frames which yours should be. Later frames tended to be stamped very poorly and you can rub the number away very easily. Or you could speak to the powder coater - I think they use a special type of thinners to remove old powder coating. The Wet n Dry paper worked for me and I then sprayed the bare metal with a clear lacquer to keep the number visible and avoid rust.

You say your number is on the LEFT side. As far as I know all Lightweights had the number stamped on the RIGHT side. That is the right side while sitting on the bike.

Patrick

Hi, I don't have a power box I have one of Als solid state regulator/rectifiers which I also mounted befind the rear channel. I also have Boyer elec ign ant put that box in the battery case, it just fits in the small space on the left of the battery protected with rubber mat.

dan

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hi Dan,

Yes I would agree with your bottom two photos as well. Ulrich quoted the part number as 20849 for the early 'spindle clamping pin'which agrees to the 1959/1961 Spare Parts Lists. This phrase "spindle clamping pin" is how Norton phrased it in the original Spare Parts List. It is simply the clamping bolt.

Apparently there was a reason why Norton uprated the clamping bolt to the quarter inch size ; if the Jubilee engine was regularly taken up to valve bounce- around 9000 rpm- the original bolt could slacken off and the push rod could jump off the ball of the rocker. I presume that Norton had quite a few warranty claims for damaged engines. It has happened to me but strangely enough nothing in the engine actually broke !. I could ride the bike home on the one working cylinder and simply readjusted the tappets, relocked the clamping bolt and all was well.

Patrick

=============

Sorry to come so late in the day on this one.

The Spindle Clamp pin (as you all suggest) got bigger around the time the Electra was born - but probably was nothing to do with it. The earlier smaller clamp pin could bend when overtightened & it could let go. I too have ridden home on one cylinder when this happened. Always fit the later Clamp Pin #24187 if you can (rather than the thinner #20849 pin).

Beware - its not just a case of opening up the holes - the new pin will have a new Centre Line.

Seems NOC spares have neither in stock at present to compare.

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

The frame parts are back from powdercoating .

Now in dove gray aka RAL 1013 pearl white.

Engine is back in the frame.

Unfortunatly one barrel has a crack which I found out after sandblasting. I can use a sleeve from the NOC shop but the engine specialist wants 200.- Euros for the work to fit it into the cylinder.

And I still have no pistons for it.

================

Again - apologies for tardy answer.

1) Colours for standard Navigator in 1961/62 were Blue & Dove Grey. The Blue closely resembles Ford Fjord Blue & Dove Grey closely resembles British Leyland Arabian Grey. Neither colour is metallic.

2) I too would not expect to see the centre stand dismantled.

See photo of one I built earlier - which can be seen on the website under 'Models'

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

The frame parts are back from powdercoating .

Now in dove gray aka RAL 1013 pearl white.

Engine is back in the frame.

Unfortunatly one barrel has a crack which I found out after sandblasting. I can use a sleeve from the NOC shop but the engine specialist wants 200.- Euros for the work to fit it into the cylinder.

And I still have no pistons for it.

================

Previously andy_sochanik wrote:

Again - apologies for tardy answer.

1) Colours for standard Navigator in 1961/62 were Blue & Dove Grey. The Blue closely resembles Ford Fjord Blue & Dove Grey closely resembles British Leyland Arabian Grey. Neither colour is metallic.

2) I too would not expect to see the centre stand dismantled.

See photo of one I built earlier - which can be seen on the website under 'Models'

1961 = grey seat

1962 = black seat

Fun illy enough I have a stand with a bent centre strut too. Not sure about the spring, i know the spring mounting hooks were different, but not sure to what extent?

The centre stand on Jubilees and Navigators had a reputation for being weak and bending but it is easily bent back into proper shape. The 'crossbar' is probably brazed into the uprights but I don't know as I have never seen one come apart before.

I don't know how the later springs differ. Andy is the likely man to know the answer.

Yes that looks much better. They can be hard to find so you have done well.

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Fun illy enough I have a stand with a bent centre strut too. Not sure about the spring, i know the spring mounting hooks were different, but not sure to what extent?

Hi Dan,

The different springs were introduced with the later Norton Lightweight gearbox. The gearbox design necessitated a change in position of the lower rear engine mounting stud. The spring action rotates about this stud.

Along with this change, others had to be made too. The hooked centrestand spring top support bracket changed. The centre stand spring changed. The frame centre channel changed.

Early lightweights had very little tension in the centre stand spring when it was up. This meant that on undulating rods the stand would often flap up and down. The change of stud position shortened the distance between stud and crossbar on stand, exacerbating the problem. Hence shorter stronger spring and altered hooked support bracket. The centrestand on Electra, with later gearbox, also became heavier with it's added foot pedal.

IMHO the tube between centre stand legs is very weak, can rust through where the spring contacts, and is easily twisted. Best to ,make sure both feet of the stand are sharing the weight of the bike as you start to lift onto stand.

Both springs are available from Martyn Bratby, No 1 The Coachhouse Works, Limepit Lane, Huntington, Cannock, South Staffs, WS12 4PA Tel 01543 572583 Mob 0777 2169524

Side by side the springs look about the same length. I suspect the early spring, with smaller diameter coils, is made of lighter gauge wire.

Peter

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