Smoke on startup

Plenty of comments on "Absolute nightmare..." thread ref. oil consumption.

Modern surface finish on new cylinders should be such that an engine requires no, or minimal running in. For example, Hastings piston rings recommend warm up engine, then accelerate from 30mph to 50mph (in suitable gear ratio) with wide open throttle ten times and that's it. The longer the running-in period the more wear is occuring between rings and bore interface. The final seal will be inferior anyway, plus engine oil will need to be changed frequently during break in period to remove metal particles as a result of ring and bore wear.

Previously bob_parsons wrote:

The dealer finally delivered my bike today. It was about3C outside and the bike had been sitting 5 days but it started right up. It smoked badly the first 2 minutes. I put about 50 miles on the bike and it ran great. I started it again a few hours after my ride with no smoke at all. The dealer says this is normal because of hard rings which are not seated yet and will get better with mileage. Do your bikes smoke on startup after sitting several days and if so does it get better with mileage ??

My 961 did smoke a bit on first start up after delivery but soon cleared. I don't get smoke on start up now even after a month of non use. My bike has over 5,000 miles now and does get better with more miles. I wouldn't worry just enjoy it and put some more miles on it andcheck the oil regular.

john Mc

Bob

As stated above I wouldn't worry too much about it. Simply make sure you use the gears aplenty during the first few hundred miles and keep an eye on the oil level.

Hello Bob run in bike as per Norton Instruction, I did mine, has no problems. Take no notice of Simons e mail follow the book, I don't give a fig about what Joe blogs from whoever says. They all run very tight for a few thousand miles and as they get more miles on you can feel them getting more responsive.

Previously paul_baddeley wrote:

They all run very tight for a few thousand miles and as they get more miles on you can feel them getting more responsive.

How many do you own ?

Previously paul_baddeley wrote:

Hello Bob run in bike as per Norton Instruction, I did mine, has no problems. Take no notice of Simons e mail follow the book, I don't give a fig about what Joe blogs from whoever says. They all run very tight for a few thousand miles and as they get more miles on you can feel them getting more responsive.

The information was from Hastings, an American piston ring manufacturer who have been manufacturing piston rings since 1915, and is typical of running in requirements of a properly finished bore.

"They all run tight....more miles....you can feel them getting more responsive" this sounds like a description of friction between rings and bore, which decreases as the rings wear and also wear away the peaks on the bore. During this process oil consumption will be relatively high and the resulting bore/ring surface finish will be poor in comparison to a controlled, machined finish. Plateau honing eliminates this problem. If the engine was literally "tight" it would seize.

The required ideal surface finish of cylinders varies only due to ring manufacturers recommended grit for honing and the final plateau hone. e.g between 200 to 400. All this information is available from piston ring manufacturers and other sites via the web. Some people will ignore facts no matter where they originate.

Previously bob_parsons wrote:

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Plenty of comments on "Absolute nightmare..." thread ref. oil consumption.

Modern surface finish on new cylinders should be such that an engine requires no, or minimal running in. For example, Hastings piston rings recommend warm up engine, then accelerate from 30mph to 50mph (in suitable gear ratio) with wide open throttle ten times and that's it. The longer the running-in period the more wear is occuring between rings and bore interface. The final seal will be inferior anyway, plus engine oil will need to be changed frequently during break in period to remove metal particles as a result of ring and bore wear.

Norton does not use Hastings rings ! The instructions you refer to are for an engine that was re-ringed or had a top overhaul ! I have been an Aerospace Quality Engineer for 35 years and thus am well acquanted with modern machining tech. including honing. As such, a diatribe on this subject was neither requested nor necessary ! Please re-read the original post, it had 2 questions, 1. Does YOUR 961 smoke on start after sitting and 2. If so did it get better with Mileage. Do you even own a 961??? If so please answer the 2 questions if not PLEASE stay out of my thread, 3 responses have been totally off topic!

Yet another member who dosen't understand the definition of forum.

I gave Hastings 'running-in' recommendations as an example of current practice. The purpose of any piston ring is to provide a seal, oil scraper excepted.

Honing procedure is the same whether the bore is brand new or has new rings fitted.

I was giving you my opinion of why you're engine is using oil and explaining the dis advantages of a long run-in period. The dealers explanation that it's because 'hard' rings are fitted does not explain your problem. Piston rings are typically hard in comparison to the bore surface, otherwise they would wear very quickly due to their much smaller surface area.

My explanation was neither a violent attack or abusive criticism, so you need to look up the definition of diatribe and no, I don't own a 961, but then neither does Lee Blackburn.

Yet another member who dosen't understand the definition of forum.

I gave Hastings 'running-in' recommendations as an example of current practice. The purpose of any piston ring is to provide a seal, oil scraper excepted.

Honing procedure is the same whether the bore is brand new or has new rings fitted.

I was giving you my opinion of why you're engine is using oil and explaining the dis advantages of a long run-in period. The dealers explanation that it's because 'hard' rings are fitted does not explain your problem. Piston rings are typically hard in comparison to the bore surface, otherwise they would wear very quickly due to their much smaller surface area.

My explanation was neither a violent attack or abusive criticism, so you need to look up the definition of diatribe and no, I don't own a 961, but then neither does Lee Blackburn.

Previously bob_parsons wrote:

The dealer finally delivered my bike today. It was about3C outside and the bike had been sitting 5 days but it started right up. It smoked badly the first 2 minutes. I put about 50 miles on the bike and it ran great. I started it again a few hours after my ride with no smoke at all. The dealer says this is normal because of hard rings which are not seated yet and will get better with mileage. Do your bikes smoke on startup after sitting several days and if so does it get better with mileage ??

Bob

Running-in and oil usage is one of those topics where if you ask 10 diferent people you'll probably get at least 11 different answers!

It sounds as though the smoke on start-up isn't much, if any, of an issue and the bike's behaviour since then suggests that this initial smoking was just that, initial.

Simon's comments about Hastings rings echo other threads I've seen on this topic on numerous other forums in the past. Ultimately if that's how someone wishes to run their engine in then that's up to them however you can't go wrong with Norton's instructions either. It sounds as though others' 961s don't have an issue with smoking after standing and that their engines improve with mileage.

Let us know how you get on as the miles mount up.

As usual Lee you've chosen to ignore anything you don't like the sound of e.g the four or five 961 owners who have chosen to report an oil consumption rate which they did not expect from a new motorcycle, 350miles/pint?

I'm not surprised you've read other threads on the same lines ref. Hastings running-in method. It's because this is the norm nowadays because of improved surface finish standards. It's necessary to run the engine quite hard to quickly bed in the rings. Problems can occur by taking it easy. If the surface finish is not to current best practice then a long break-in is required with associated disadvantages as I mentioned earlier.

For the sake of owners experiencing problems, I hope Norton quickly provide a solution, although there response to date that it is "normal" is not encouraging.

P.S Do me a favour and amend my posting you've decide to reprint under your name.

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

As usual Lee you've chosen to ignore anything you don't like the sound of e.g the four or five 961 owners who have chosen to report an oil consumption rate which they did not expect from a new motorcycle, 350miles/pint?

This thread isn't about oil consumption. Plus I've not mentioned anything about it on this thread. Therefore I think that you're confusing this thread with others on different subjects.

I'm not surprised you've read other threads on the same lines ref. Hastings running-in method. It's because this is the norm nowadays, because of improved surface finish standards. It's necessary to run the engine quite hard to quickly bed in the rings. Problems can occur by taking it easy. If the surface finish is not to current best practice then a long break-in is required with associated disadvantages as I mentioned earlier.

Yep - Wouldn't disagree but I'll say again - If you talk to people about running-in then most will have their own opinion on how best to go about it. Your version has merit, and I will be doing something similar with mine when the time comes to run it in, however the original post didn't ask about running-in. If you have another read of my posts above then you'll see I've not disagreed with anything you've said on this.

For the sake of owners experiencing problems, I hope Norton quickly provide a solution, although there response to date that it is "normal" is not encouraging.

Depends on your definition of 'Normal' I guess. However, I'd agree that this shouldn't be acceptable.

Think back to other examples of manufacturers with oil usage issues in the past, say 10 years. Triumph (675s and 1050s) and Honda (2008-on Firebaldes) and they always quote this figure of approx 1 litre per 1000 miles. Is that acceptable? Not in a million years in this day and age but the point is that it remains the industry 'standard'.

To be honest this will now go around in circles and is better discussed at a NOC meet/event face-to-face. As for your dig earlier about not owning a 961 - Yep that's true, at least it is at the moment but I'll get there soon enough.

Norton's definition of normal is 350miles/pint. Mine is nearer 2,000miles/pint - for a 1976 Commando.

The only people I talk to about running in are the piston ring manufacturers.

Lee Blackburn previously wrote, quote; "This thread isn't about oil consumption and I've not mentioned anything about it here...", and quote; "Bob, running in and oil usage is one of those topics........"

Unbelievable.

Hi Bob

My 961 does not and never has smoked after standing for a period of time.

Hello Bob I was going to ask you earlier are you experiencing condensation on start up with the cold damp air.

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Norton's definition of normal is 350miles/pint. Mine is nearer 2,000miles/pint - for a 1976 Commando.

The only people I talk to about running in are the piston ring manufacturers.

Lee Blackburn previously wrote, quote; "This thread isn't about oil consumption and I've not mentioned anything about it here...", and quote; "Bob, running in and oil usage is one of those topics........"

Unbelievable.

OK mate - Whatever.

Previously bob_parsons wrote:

I should have asked did your bike smoke on the first start of the day when new, and if so for how many break in miles! Of course I am at or near freezing temperatures which doesn't help!

Bob

No it didn't, it only shows signs ofthe normal evaporation due to the cold and damp.

One factor no one has mentioned in this thread is that air cooled engines need greater clearances when cold to allow for more the more irregular expansion as the cooling is not as good as water cooling.

Perhaps this is part of the issue when starting from cold and some smoke appearing presumably coming past the rings when the engine is cold.

Previously david_clarke1 wrote:

One factor no one has mentioned in this thread is that air cooled engines need greater clearances when cold to allow for more the more irregular expansion as the cooling is not as good as water cooling.

Perhaps this is part of the issue when starting from cold and some smoke appearing presumably coming past the rings when the engine is cold.

David

A good point. Though I have to say that when my Harley XR1200 was new it never smoked on start-up and that has a similar amount of power and compression ratio to the Norton.

Having said that all the wisdom (And the H-D dealer + Handbook) was that during the breaking-in phase to check the oil level at least every couple of hundred miles.

I have been out on my Commando sport 961 today and just wanted to share a couple of points.First thing is that the bike now having done 700 plusmiles and had its first service is a different animal altogether.I do keep an eye on theoil but thats OK with meI have had many bikes but this is a traditional British road bike and it deserves to be looked after.I very carefully ran the bikein to the schedule and am now being rewarded with a fine motorcycle. The Norton now starts up easy and ticks over very well and with the louder pipes on really does makeme smile.A couple of niggles for methat I am now fine with...You just have to get used to its ways..Firstly the foot pegs seemed to all too easily snap up in the folded upwards position,this has now eased and they seem to be fine now. Secondly the motorcycle stand is a bit tricky,I find I need to bend down whilst at a stopand use my gloved hand to pull it open,but again I am used to it now. I would have a Gel seat fitted if the factory offered that option,and thats about it. The majorgood points are 1.The engine now is really starting to free up and its a real blast withmuch more torque and power than any of various Bonnevilles old and new that I've had. 2.The brakes are the best I've had on any bike full stop! .3. Handling is fantastic around the country Shropshire/Worcestershire roads near Stourbridge it's just great fun.4. Guess what.. unlike most old British bikes not a drop of oil under the bike, most of it seems to stay where it's supposed to.5.The Norton 961 commandois simply the best looking production bike in the world today and I love mine X. Some peoplewell, one maleindividual in particular on this forumseems to me, tobe alittle bitter and twistedabout the new Commando 961.I have no idea why whenit's a great product.

Previously dave_sheppard wrote:

I have been out on my Commando sport 961 today and just wanted to share a couple of points.First thing is that the bike now having done 700 plusmiles and had its first service is a different animal altogether.I do keep an eye on theoil but thats OK with meI have had many bikes but this is a traditional British road bike and it deserves to be looked after.I very carefully ran the bikein to the schedule and am now being rewarded with a fine motorcycle. The Norton now starts up easy and ticks over very well and with the louder pipes on really does makeme smile.A couple of niggles for methat I am now fine with...You just have to get used to its ways..Firstly the foot pegs seemed to all too easily snap up in the folded upwards position,this has now eased and they seem to be fine now. Secondly the motorcycle stand is a bit tricky,I find I need to bend down whilst at a stopand use my gloved hand to pull it open,but again I am used to it now. I would have a Gel seat fitted if the factory offered that option,and thats about it. The majorgood points are 1.The engine now is really starting to free up and its a real blast withmuch more torque and power than any of various Bonnevilles old and new that I've had. 2.The brakes are the best I've had on any bike full stop! .3. Handling is fantastic around the country Shropshire/Worcestershire roads near Stourbridge it's just great fun.4. Guess what.. unlike most old British bikes not a drop of oil under the bike, most of it seems to stay where it's supposed to.5.The Norton 961 commandois simply the best looking production bike in the world today and I love mine X. Some peoplewell, one maleindividual in particular on this forumseems to me, tobe alittle bitter and twistedabout the new Commando 961.I have no idea why whenit's a great product.

Dave

Thanks for the update - That's really good to see and it's nice to hear that you're enjoying the bike more and more as the miles mount up.

Previously dave_sheppard wrote:

Some peoplewell, one maleindividual in particular on this forumseems to me, tobe alittle bitter and twistedabout the new Commando 961. I have no idea why whenit's a great product.

Not bitter and twisted, just trying to supply an answer to peoples queries ref. oil consumption. I live just north of Wolverhampton so we're in the same part of the world. I'd be interested to see how a 961 goes in comparison to an old Commando. As I haven't seen one actually on the road, next time you're out for a ride send me a PM and we'll meet up.

P.S just sent you a PM with my mobile no so you can text me.

Previously Simon_ratcliff wrote:

Previously dave_sheppard wrote:

Some peoplewell, one maleindividual in particular on this forumseems to me, tobe alittle bitter and twistedabout the new Commando 961. I have no idea why whenit's a great product.

Not bitter and twisted, just trying to supply an answer to peoples queries ref. oil consumption. I live just north of Wolverhampton so we're in the same part of the world. I'd be interested to see how a 961 goes in comparison to an old Commando. As I haven't seen one actually on the road, next time you're out for a ride send me a PM and we'll meet up.

Simon I hope you do meet up as I am sure that once you get near one you will be very tempted to admit that the 961 is a very good looking motorcycle and fitted with all the best quality equipment. You might even be tempted to order what is at todays prices a very reasonably priced hand built motorcycle.

Paul.

Previously paul_baddeley wrote:

Simon I hope you do meet up as I am sure that once you get near one you will be very tempted to admit that the 961 is a very good looking motorcycle and fitted with all the best quality equipment. You might even be tempted to order what is at todays prices a very reasonably priced hand built motorcycle.

Paul.

I saw them at the bike show last year, and sat on one at an AGM. I remember my knees being no where near the tank cutouts. Looks are subjective, but I think they have a bitza appearance - gaps between the side panels and frame rails, ditto petrol tank, headlamp is ugly. Not much looks as if it's been designed with consideration for adjacent components. Take them out in the wet and the rear end is going to get plastered in muck as there appears to be nothing to prevent debris flying off the rear tyre. Front mudguard too is inadequate. Several other major components are out of proportion with each other. Primary drive is ugly and it still has the joke gear lever linkage. So no,even if I could afford one, I can think of many other ways to spend £15,000.

Still looking forward to coming across one on the road though. But I'm not holding my breath.

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote

"Take them out in the wet and the rear end is going to get plastered in muck as there appears to be nothing to prevent debris flying off the rear tyre. Front mudguard too is inadequate."

They actually work quite well. The first 600 miles I rode on mine were mainly in the rain and the bike remained reasonably clean.

Previously david_charlesworth wrote:

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote

"Take them out in the wet and the rear end is going to get plastered in muck as there appears to be nothing to prevent debris flying off the rear tyre. Front mudguard too is inadequate."

They actually work quite well. The first 600 miles I rode on mine were mainly in the rain and the bike remained reasonably clean.

You must mean by, "remained reasonably clean" having considered that there's no rear mudguard and that the back half of the front mudguard does not exist.

Each to their own ref looks etc. Not surprisingly I'm very firmly in the appreciative camp though I did spot a black 850 Commando in our car park last week which was rather nice too. It was in 'Working' condition too - Better, in my eyes at least,than a museum piece. Having said that they've a nice white (With blue and red stripe) one in the Haynes Motor Museum now too.

As for the lack of mudguard etc. That seems to be something of a modern affliction unfortunately as very few manufacturers seem to do this properly any more. Not really sure why.

I'm hoping that come next year I'll start to see more 961s around - Working on the old principle that once you ride one you end up noticing them a lot more often as well.

I'll be curious to see how many there are in the Hampshire area where I'm based - Can't say I've seen more than half-a-dozen in all my years down here. And that applies to original Commando models too.

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Previously david_charlesworth wrote:

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote

"Take them out in the wet and the rear end is going to get plastered in muck as there appears to be nothing to prevent debris flying off the rear tyre. Front mudguard too is inadequate."

They actually work quite well. The first 600 miles I rode on mine were mainly in the rain and the bike remained reasonably clean.

You must mean by, "remained reasonably clean" having considered that there's no rear mudguard and that the back half of the front mudguard does not exist.

Exactly what I said, it remained reasonably clean, no better or worse than any other bike I've owned. In 40 years I've never ridden in the rain and arrived at my destination with a clean bike, have you? I presume you have ridden a bike in the wet,ordo you haveclean rain and clean roads where you live.

Previously dave_sheppard wrote:

I have been out on my Commando sport 961 today and just wanted to share a couple of points.First thing is that the bike now having done 700 plusmiles and had its first service is a different animal altogether.I do keep an eye on theoil but thats OK with meI have had many bikes but this is a traditional British road bike and it deserves to be looked after.I very carefully ran the bikein to the schedule and am now being rewarded with a fine motorcycle. The Norton now starts up easy and ticks over very well and with the louder pipes on really does makeme smile.A couple of niggles for methat I am now fine with...You just have to get used to its ways..Firstly the foot pegs seemed to all too easily snap up in the folded upwards position,this has now eased and they seem to be fine now. Secondly the motorcycle stand is a bit tricky,I find I need to bend down whilst at a stopand use my gloved hand to pull it open,but again I am used to it now. I would have a Gel seat fitted if the factory offered that option,and thats about it. The majorgood points are 1.The engine now is really starting to free up and its a real blast withmuch more torque and power than any of various Bonnevilles old and new that I've had. 2.The brakes are the best I've had on any bike full stop! .3. Handling is fantastic around the country Shropshire/Worcestershire roads near Stourbridge it's just great fun.4. Guess what.. unlike most old British bikes not a drop of oil under the bike, most of it seems to stay where it's supposed to.5.The Norton 961 commandois simply the best looking production bike in the world today and I love mine X. Some peoplewell, one maleindividual in particular on this forumseems to me, tobe alittle bitter and twistedabout the new Commando 961.I have no idea why whenit's a great product.

My experiences are exactly as Dave has penned here. No issues with smoke, handling & braking superb - huge grin factor every time.

I have no smoke on startup even after a few weeks without use. I do have a 1975 850 Commando which always smokes on start up but it doesn't worry me as it still goes very well.

I must admit I still don't see many other 961's on the road except for when I attend my localNOC Oxford branch. When I stop at any bike meetings etc it always attracts a lot of interest and most are very impressed. I still enjoy my old Commando but there is really not much to compare with the 961. The 961 has better braking, handling and is much more powerful. Performance wise it is far superior to the 850 as you would expect. john

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Previously paul_baddeley wrote:

Simon I hope you do meet up as I am sure that once you get near one you will be very tempted to admit that the 961 is a very good looking motorcycle and fitted with all the best quality equipment. You might even be tempted to order what is at todays prices a very reasonably priced hand built motorcycle.

Paul.

I saw them at the bike show last year, and sat on one at an AGM. I remember my knees being no where near the tank cutouts. Looks are subjective, but I think they have a bitza appearance - gaps between the side panels and frame rails, ditto petrol tank, headlamp is ugly. Not much looks as if it's been designed with consideration for adjacent components. Take them out in the wet and the rear end is going to get plastered in muck as there appears to be nothing to prevent debris flying off the rear tyre. Front mudguard too is inadequate. Several other major components are out of proportion with each other. Primary drive is ugly and it still has the joke gear lever linkage. So no,even if I could afford one, I can think of many other ways to spend £15,000.

Still looking forward to coming across one on the road though. But I'm not holding my breath.

"I remember my knees being no where near the tank cutouts."

Well thats a couple of features that they copied from the Manganese Bronze Verluchhi Commandos then, because my knees are nowhere near the tank on my roadster.

And the 961 mudguarding seems to follow MBV standards too, as I did about 40 miles on my MBV yesterday on damp greasy roads, after which my boots, legs and the bike were plastered in crud.

Previously david_charlesworth wrote:

Exactly what I said, it remained reasonably clean, no better or worse than any other bike I've owned. In 40 years I've never ridden in the rain and arrived at my destination with a clean bike, have you? I presume you have ridden a bike in the wet,ordo you haveclean rain and clean roads where you live.

Still fail to see how a bike with no rear mudgaurd and half a front mudguard can be less dirty than a bike with two full mudgaurds front and rear. I do ride in all weather, mostly Shropshire and Wales, both mainly rural so plenty of agricultural deposits. We do have clean rain around here, but only until it hits the road! (joke).

Previously lee_blackburn wrote:

I'll be curious to see how many there are in the Hampshire area where I'm based - Can't say I've seen more than half-a-dozen in all my years down here. And that applies to original Commando models too.

I take it you haven't read the "Don't see many of those about" thread, a literary classic. Not for the fainthearted.