leaking fuel tank

If the maker is claiming that ethanol has damaged the tank of a five-year-old vehicle it strikes me that it is tantamount to an admission that their goods are not fit for purpose.

As a precaution you might want to bone up on the small claims court procedure; this is a good starting point:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/

Good luck!

Previously steven_eccleshall wrote:

Hi, Depressed of 961 land here, I have a 2012 sport. I love how she looks but in 5 years have had 1700 troublesome miles and the bike has been back to the factory more times than I can count. Back in 2013 amongst other troubles, the gasket apparently failed between fuel pump and tank and wrecked the one off paint job. it was fixed under warranty after a bunfight. Today took bike out for a mot as i had a vague hope of getting it across to pre race week TT at IOM on friday, so filled it up with lovely fresh fuel. It passed the MOT - and why not with only 1700 miles, but fuel was dripping out from Pump and tank again. straight home to drain tank, but front tank mount bolt just turns, presumably turning insert in base of tank, so I cannot remove tank. I called Norton as they are the ONLY people to work on the bike, so if bolt was cross threaded it can ONLY be one of their guys, and was told its a difficult one to prove but furthermore after i described the symptoms was told that it is 95% chance ethanol has corrupted the tank causing the leak and could also have affected the area around the insert causing tank to swell and release insert. Apparently "many" other manufacturers suffer this but its just the one tank in 500 that it hits.............. does this sound right to all of you knowledgeable people?? I know ethanol is poison but can it really be this??? So I can either find a second hand tank?? No chance, get an alloy one £2600, or pay for bike to go back to norton, get them to free tank and assess and if its not the gasket its £900+ for a bare tank and i will need to get the one off paint job done on top. If any one has any other options that don't involve a burning rag in the fuel tank please let me know................... I SOOOOOOOO wanted this norton to be great and it certainly looks it ................ but I really hoped it would get me from A-B and back more than once. HELP!

Hello,

I sympathise with your expensive fuel tank problems and I do wonder what is the real cause of the Norton tank problem.

Ethanol has been around now for a long time and cannot be an acceptable reason for failure of a modern petrol tank. I have three plastic petrol cans (2 are red and one is green if it makes any difference) for keeping petrol for the lawn mower. All have been in use for many years - probably 10/15 years - without any signs of failure; so if a £5 petrol can works why does an expensive Norton tank fail ??.

Patrick

I only use Esso Ron 75 ethanol free i have been told that this is the only ethanol free fuel on sale in the uk.I cannot understand why my my J P S Commando and Suzuki Kettle do not suffer from ethanol problems.

Apparently there are three big name European manufacturers who have each sold bikes that suffered from their fuel tanks going soft and then dumping fuel through previously leak free joints. The problem only appears to affect models with Poly tanks that have been filled with petrol containing 10% Ethanol.

The worrying point about the 961 is the proximity between the fuel pump and the bike's battery.

Attached photo shows my 961 happily dripping the contents of the tank onto the ground....or to start with my garage floor. Note the damage the leaking fuel has done to the nearby paintwork. When my bike was taken away for repairs I was informed of four similar cases to mine.

The other photo is my 650SS oil tank after filling up recently with BP Ultimate. Yes....... the fuel that is supposed to be Ethanol free in the region where I live.

The problem with fuel tank on my 961 was slightly different but certainly caused by fuel. Rippling and bubbling of the paintwork on one side appeared after five years although the tank remains fuel tight with no leaks around pump gasket. Have always used BP Ultimate. When I called up Norton last year they told me fuel is causing it and if bike is being laid up for several weeks - eg , winter - tank should be drained. Ordered a new finished HDPE tank (sunburst yellow , GBP 600) which was ready for collection four months later - haven't fitted it yet with original tank still fuel tight.

I only use Esso Synergy plus as it reputably has no ethanol . I normaly dont suffer any of the usual problems and fuel is usable after a winter layoff. I have had a problem with my local Esso station which is not fussy which fuel goes in which tank!.Not sure if the "Mixup" is deliberate to make money or just that they occasionaly can't get the top fuel , as the Plus pump is always the only pump ever to run out and be locked off. The eth fuel runs very differently and immediately pulls out some of the remaining tank liner onto the plugs, I always have spare fuel to wash chains etc!!.I now carry a 5 gall race fuel can in the van and fill that up to use in the bikes, If I think i have been sold a "PUP" it goes in the car tank. The Eth fuel actually runs cleaner in all the bikes as it burns weaker but then the problems arrive. I always tape over the tank breather holes when not in use to reduce condensation and loss of light fuel elements. As you can imagine I have regular spills over the tanks but none of the 3 different paints seem bothered by the Esso fuel ,

Previously philip_hannam wrote:

The other photo is my 650SS oil tank after filling up recently with BP Ultimate. Yes....... the fuel that is supposed to be Ethanol free in the region where I live.

I wish I had a solution but the ethanol debate goes on. I have seen a posting in another make site which said that if you have been using ethanol fuel for a year or two then even if you think the tank has not deformed on the visible surfaces if you measured it against a new one you would see a difference.

I believe that in the main part of the UK the ONLY ethanol free fuel is esso supreme plus. Cue the additives/ tank lining etc debate again. As a new owner I am expecting future problems and expect to have to replace the tank. Expensive alloy once vs multiple plastic.

No words in my vocabulary to describe the situation. Safety issue etc. . I don't understand why Norton as a premium brand have not jumped on this and changed the material. i would love to hear the real story from Simon as there must be an aspect of this we don't understand. Sounds unpleasantly like an old fashioned 'if most last up to the end of the warranty then that's ok'.

Commiserations from a future sufferer - Clive

If you are going to the TT or classic in the IOM you dont need to worry as all the fuel there is eth free. They know better than to have the nasty stuff !!, and they have their own government. Racers can have an issue there as the Manx fuel does give some bikes fuelling problems.

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

If you are going to the TT or classic in the IOM you dont need to worry as all the fuel there is eth free. They know better than to have the nasty stuff !!, and they have their own government. Racers can have an issue there as the Manx fuel does give some bikes fuelling problems.

This is really interesting - I wonder how the distribution works for petrol with/ without ethanol? Is it added before it goes out in the tankers or is there separate storage????

Unfortunately I don't think the wife will take that as an excuse to go over to the IOM....

What puzzles me is that so many cars have plastic petrol tanks and have had for years with no reported problems and yet motorcycle manufacturers presumably with access to the same technology get it so wrong. Why?

Hi Clive, Ethanol is only added to the mix as late as possible as the industry does not want its expensive tanks damaged more than necessary!. They also dont want it damaging the tanks in the IOM so 2 fingers up to the uk Gov.

reading up on ethanol a while ago they said it was stored long term in stainless tanks. so why dont they simply make the norton tanks out of stainless steel.

if the tanks are made from plastic is there a heat shield between the engine and the tank or at least some sort of heat absorbing material.

Barry.

I think copper would look nicer, after all thatâs where it came from in the first place!

Previously Clive Astley-Mynd wrote:

Previously philip_hannam wrote:

The other photo is my 650SS oil tank after filling up recently with BP Ultimate. Yes....... the fuel that is supposed to be Ethanol free in the region where I live.

I wish I had a solution but the ethanol debate goes on. I have seen a posting in another make site which said that if you have been using ethanol fuel for a year or two then even if you think the tank has not deformed on the visible surfaces if you measured it against a new one you would see a difference.

I believe that in the main part of the UK the ONLY ethanol free fuel is esso supreme plus. Cue the additives/ tank lining etc debate again. As a new owner I am expecting future problems and expect to have to replace the tank. Expensive alloy once vs multiple plastic.

No words in my vocabulary to describe the situation. Safety issue etc. . I don't understand why Norton as a premium brand have not jumped on this and changed the material. i would love to hear the real story from Simon as there must be an aspect of this we don't understand. Sounds unpleasantly like an old fashioned 'if most last up to the end of the warranty then that's ok'.

Commiserations from a future sufferer - Clive

If this happened in the car industry i am sure there would be an immediate recall. Norton are relying on the typical apathy of bikers in putting up with poor quality and not wishing to bad mouth their favourite manufacturer.

Previously steven_eccleshall wrote:

Hi, Depressed of 961 land here, I have a 2012 sport. I love how she looks but in 5 years have had 1700 troublesome miles and the bike has been back to the factory more times than I can count. Back in 2013 amongst other troubles, the gasket apparently failed between fuel pump and tank and wrecked the one off paint job. it was fixed under warranty after a bunfight. Today took bike out for a mot as i had a vague hope of getting it across to pre race week TT at IOM on friday, so filled it up with lovely fresh fuel. It passed the MOT - and why not with only 1700 miles, but fuel was dripping out from Pump and tank again. straight home to drain tank, but front tank mount bolt just turns, presumably turning insert in base of tank, so I cannot remove tank. I called Norton as they are the ONLY people to work on the bike, so if bolt was cross threaded it can ONLY be one of their guys, and was told its a difficult one to prove but furthermore after i described the symptoms was told that it is 95% chance ethanol has corrupted the tank causing the leak and could also have affected the area around the insert causing tank to swell and release insert. Apparently "many" other manufacturers suffer this but its just the one tank in 500 that it hits.............. does this sound right to all of you knowledgeable people?? I know ethanol is poison but can it really be this??? So I can either find a second hand tank?? No chance, get an alloy one £2600, or pay for bike to go back to norton, get them to free tank and assess and if its not the gasket its £900+ for a bare tank and i will need to get the one off paint job done on top. If any one has any other options that don't involve a burning rag in the fuel tank please let me know................... I SOOOOOOOO wanted this norton to be great and it certainly looks it ................ but I really hoped it would get me from A-B and back more than once. HELP!

hello this may not be the tank but the gasket or what its made from ,as ethernol eats into gaskets so if yu can get a sheet of niroprine gasket you can then make your own gasket for the fitting to the tank and this web site like hard work like pulling teeth it need a up date with a spell checker on like gramaliey

The fuel tank leak on my 961 tank was caused by the tank material going soft in the region of the pump mounting plate. The gasket was fine but only held in place by 6 bolts. Whether more bolts would have helped I know not. There were 2 places between 2 of these bolts where the tank material had clearly deformed and allowed fuel to pass the gasket.

I have included another photo showing the electrics getting a good soaking. Consequently causing the battery to go flat. Which is when I noticed something was wrong.

Many cars have plastic fuel tanks but apparently in most cases the electrics are top mounted so leaking gaskets is generally not a problem.

maybe the fuel pump securing bolts are slightly to long and when tightened have pushed through to the inside of the petrol tank. then petrol seeps down the bolt threads. who knows we will never know.

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

maybe the fuel pump securing bolts are slightly to long and when tightened have pushed through to the inside of the petrol tank. then petrol seeps down the bolt threads. who knows we will never know.

hello barry you may be right but this is a MOT issue leaking fuel gets you an instant fail, I wound love to have a look at one of these tanks to see if I can come up with something better as to me is not very well engineered and why have a fuel pump in the tank where you cannot get at it and why are there wires all over the place and why have the battery were you cannot get to it , all these are MOT issues and this all need to be re-engineered and if the tank material is not standing up to the fuel then its not fit for its perpurse and this is a trading standards issue, and an heath and safety issue and fuel and electrics do not go well and a fire can be caused by this, so something need to be done, and this tank needs making from alloy or stainsteels to be more safe yours anna j

Hello Anna .don't know what happened to my diagram earlier .but here it is again . not meaning all the bolts are to long just the odd one could cause problems.

Barry

Hi, this is a Health and Safety recall matter. Vauxhall cars catch fire for the same problem. Threaten the manufacturer with the EU courts. Very dangerous if it goes up under you at speed. Go to the local court and ask aJudge in chambers for advice, it is free. Contact Vosa. The fact they have fixed it once is an admission of guilt in Law. Do not be so nice to them, they are Sharks and Highway men if they play with your life.

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

maybe the fuel pump securing bolts are slightly to long and when tightened have pushed through to the inside of the petrol tank. then petrol seeps down the bolt threads. who knows we will never know.

hello barry you may be right but this is a MOT issue leaking fuel gets you an instant fail, I wound love to have a look at one of these tanks to see if I can come up with something better as to me is not very well engineered and why have a fuel pump in the tank where you cannot get at it and why are there wires all over the place and why have the battery were you cannot get to it , all these are MOT issues and this all need to be re-engineered and if the tank material is not standing up to the fuel then its not fit for its perpurse and this is a trading standards issue, and an heath and safety issue and fuel and electrics do not go well and a fire can be caused by this, so something need to be done, and this tank needs making from alloy or stainsteels to be more safe yours anna j

............................

Hello Anna .don't know what happened to my diagram earlier .but here it is again . not meaning all the bolts are to long just the odd one could cause problems.

Barry

Hello, I would contact an independent engineer like someone from the RAC or the AA and let them take a look fractured components from new, Has its not fit for purpose and a hazard, once you have the engineers report you can then send a copy and a letter to the DVLA and Trading Standard has this is an MOT instant failure and a fire hazard Too you or others and of great concern, yours Anna J

Anna, i haven't got a 961 myself .the drawing i put up was just a theory of what it could be

if no one is prepared to strip a tank down to its component parts and check why its leaking its still going to remain a mystery.

Barry

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

maybe the fuel pump securing bolts are slightly to long and when tightened have pushed through to the inside of the petrol tank. then petrol seeps down the bolt threads. who knows we will never know.

hello barry you may be right but this is a MOT issue leaking fuel gets you an instant fail, I wound love to have a look at one of these tanks to see if I can come up with something better as to me is not very well engineered and why have a fuel pump in the tank where you cannot get at it and why are there wires all over the place and why have the battery were you cannot get to it , all these are MOT issues and this all need to be re-engineered and if the tank material is not standing up to the fuel then its not fit for its perpurse and this is a trading standards issue, and an heath and safety issue and fuel and electrics do not go well and a fire can be caused by this, so something need to be done, and this tank needs making from alloy or stainsteels to be more safe yours anna j

............................

Hello Anna .don't know what happened to my diagram earlier .but here it is again . not meaning all the bolts are to long just the odd one could cause problems.

Barry

Hello, I would contact an independent engineer like someone from the RAC or the AA and let them take a look fractured components from new, Has its not fit for purpose and a hazard, once you have the engineers report you can then send a copy and a letter to the DVLA and Trading Standard has this is an MOT instant failure and a fire hazard Too you or others and of great concern, yours Anna J

...............................

...............................

Anna, i haven't got a 961 myself .the drawing i put up was just a theory of what it could be

if know one is prepared to strip a tank down to its component parts and check why its leaking its still going to remain a mystery.

Barry

Hello To all this dose not mater who has a 961 or not a fuel leak like this is of concern and needs farther investigation and putting right before someone is harm-ed seriously yours anna j

i dont think anything will be done until someone turns into a ghost rider

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

i dont think anything will be done until someone turns into a ghost rider