Long Roadholders

Hi Dan

I think RGM have the stanchions and the external springs. I fitted my long roadholders with internal springs and 2-way damping systems, makes for a much nicer ride. I can find the details if you are interested?

Andy

Read what Ken McIntosh has to say about fitting Commando forks on earlier bikes:

Andy I would be interested in reading how you improved the damping on your early forks as I am trying to improve it on my early Roadholders equiped with the simple double cone damper.

Michael, thanks for the link you put up, that was interesting and explained a lot.

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Thanks for the quick replies, an interesting read Ken, but I have a 55 pre featherbed es2 so not sure if bit about the top nut applies. Andy if you can let me have the details of what you did that would be great. Has any one tried the Landsdowne Engineering dampers?

dan

Dan the Lansdownemod will require achange ofstanchionsdespite what theweb sitesays. Thats another £100forquality onesfrom Norvil... just so you know...

More fork info:

http://www.nocnsw.org.au/technical/norton-roadholders

Hi Dan,

the article would be helpfull in understanding the flaws in the Norton Roadholder (long & short versions) & some options to correct them, which would be easier to do prior to assembly. I was not sure if you were going stock, or with the improved Commando forks, but either could use the improvements mentioned in the article. On my '57 M77 I went stock, but I don't ride it really aggressively. Would consider the Commando option as a better front end, but of course, at a cost

Keep us posted!

P'S. I see on your other thread the Landsdown option will have a delay due to surgery, hmmmm riding season gets shorter every day.

Skip

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Thanks chaps,

Jonathon, I need new stanchions anyway, is there a difference between the Norvil and RGM ones then, or do i need to buy commando stanchions to make them fit?

My choice seems to be new 23 1/4" stanchions,springs and bushes to keep it original for about £130

or new stanchions as above, commando dampers, springs, damper rods for about £260 RGM also seem to do improved commando dampers?

or the Lansdowne units for £250 on top of option 1. ( they are still in business I got a reply to my email even though it had bounced back)

My ES2 is in trials trim so wont be getting a thrashing anywhere but the forks will be using all of theirtravel!

Skip, thanks for your link, I think I had read that before but it doesnt seem to deal directly with long roadholders?

Dan

Dan hedid say that the commando stanchion needsto fitted as the hole is therightsize, herecommendedNorvil as they have themmade at Velocette inBirmingham tooriginal spec.Be sure to order thebest oneas they offer two grades, one from Veloce, the otherfrom India...

Doesanyonehave anydimensionsfor thecomponents in theLONG Roadholder? Most articles refer to mods onshortiesbut Iwould like toimprove the long RH's. Themachinewallows all over theplaceyet on stripping the frontend lastnight theredoesn't appear to beanything amiss. Internal diameter of bottombush, size/position ofvent holes diameter offixed rod at maximum taper??

What's the thought on removing theshort helpersprings to make the hydraulic partwork on a lower range of thetaper?? and tuck the frontdown a bit

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Jonathan

i think the issue is that the long RHs do not have any damping to speak of in the middle of their range, hence the wallowing. One answer is to fit commando dampers for some improvement or the Landsdowne cartridges for a more modern adjustable approach. I haven't found anything about adapting the long road holder "damping" tubes to improve them, although I suspect the mods to stop them from topping and bottoming out with a clank might work.

I'm not sure if the short RH damping rods would fit (the sliders seem to be approx the same size) or make things any better, I have a pair but I'm not enthusiastic about taking them apart again having just rebuilt them!!

On a separate point my bike has a 21" front wheel from a bantam, but the forks don't seem to have a pinch bolt, is that normal?

Dan

Dan, my long Roadholders clank as they bottom and top out. What are the mods you have read about to stop this? Can you direct me to the scource, as I have searched the net and can only find the Lansdown or Commando converstions.

Thanks.

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Ps what helper springs? I only have the ones on the outside?!

the very early long Roadholders had two external springs on each leg. I have seen parts list showing these, but at some point Norton switched to the single external spring (11 3/4" )

I can't remember where the dampers came from AND I cant find any paperwork... Very frustrating, I've got invoices and reciepts for everything else there!

A mate of mine put the same set up in his Model 18 so I'll ask him about them when I see him, probably tomorrow.

Sorry about that

Andy

Previously peter_stowe wrote:

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Ps what helper springs? I only have the ones on the outside?!

the very early long Roadholders had two external springs on each leg. I have seen parts list showing these, but at some point Norton switched to the single external spring (11 3/4" )

Yes; seems both myLRHmachines have theshort "helper" spring followed by 8.5"external springs.... still availableat StuRogers if required...

Previously Chris Grimmett wrote:

Don't forget the Covenant conversion in all of this. Maybe not everything that is possible but both quick and cheap to implement. It helped on my setup.

Whatgoeson with thecovenantconversion? Anyonegot anyfeedback??

Cheers

J

I see that Andover Norton are selling for long Roadholders new damper tubes and bottom bush retaining nut. I wonder if these being new and to a finer tolerance they may stop the bottom/topping out. Or they could be just as bad as the originals and the money better spent on the Commando conversion.

Your thoughts?

Previously peter_stowe wrote:

I see that Andover Norton are selling for long Roadholders new double cone damper tubes and bottom bush retaining nut of the type originaly fitted. I wonder if these being new and to a finer tolerance they may stop the bottom/topping out. Or they could be just as bad as the originals and the money better spent on the Commando conversion.

Your thoughts?

I have recently renovated a 19S, the forks were in a shocking state (as was everything else) so, on Mike Pembertons recommendation I fitted Commando stantions and dampers to my 1957 19S, I had to get fork top nuts from ebay.

Really good, very impressed, matched with hagons on the rear, the suspension is great IMHO.

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Excellent news, I feel more confident!! Do yours clank when bottoming or topping out? Fortunately I have threaded top nuts already, but watch the threads some are cycle some bsf I think, RGM has rods for both.

Dan

No clanking with the commando setup, quite a `modern` feel really, even `at speed` over the crazy roads on the Yorkshire wolds.

You will need slightly thicker washers under the fork top nuts

Previously john_hawden wrote:

You will need slightly thicker washers under the fork top nuts

Why slightly thicker washers?

Attached Roadholder Forks Mod article is worth reading.

I believe that the damper tube lengths were about 7" for both short and long Roadholders but the method of damping differed. The Model 7 & 77 bikes having external springs and a taper rod damper whereas the 88 and other Feathbeds had internal spring and a shuttle damper. The damper tube length increased to 9" for the Commando models. Some people have fitted the Commando tubes into short Roadholders and claimed it has improved the fork performance. You have to wary of the changes of threads from Cycle to UNF when using Commando bits and pieces.

Dan

It seems as if you and I are trying to achieve the same thing- a set of long Roadholders with decent damping.

It is poor that RGM can't tell you what dampers and rods are needed, but I think, as you say, the long damper tubes are for hybrids as it is 2" longer as is the hybrid stanchions. That would allow the use of the sme UNF damper as used in Commando.

I was planning to use the ' alloy fork damper with improved damping for standard Commando', with the UNF damper rod, and shorter Commando stantion top nuts for bikes without instruments.

In fact the only part left from my long Roadholders will be the sliders, everying else will be standard Commando, but hidden under the fork shrouds.

I shall internal springs as I think these will be better than 60 year old externals

Dan.

RGM part number MD92A top nut has a shank between the threads and hexagon.....050501 does not. The shank is to hold an speedo / rev counter.

I have looked at the Andover Norton web site and find it easier to identify what I need. The total price is about the same, so I am thinking I shall probably buy from them.

I was planning to use the ' alloy fork damper with improved damping for standard Commando', with the UNF damper rod, and shorter Commando stantion top nuts for bikes without instruments.

I purchased my forks from a chap who said they had been treated to a Dresda conversion kit. Inside, there were longer alloy fork dampers & alloy rods. The top nuts were also alloy. The pinch-side boot had been modified to a 2 bolt clamp form.

The forks worked well and the road handling was very good. The bad news arrived at the first fork oil change when small chunks of silver coloured metal flowed out with the old oil. A stripdown and examination of the important parts revealed very serious wear to the point that new steel damper tubes would be on my next spares order.

Previously Dan Field wrote:

I read a post on the britbike forum that said he put a steel bush with a Ptfe liner in the damper cap to reduce wear, seems like a bit of a faff to me! I'll go with the steel ones! Having just read his answer he's offered me a couple of bushes which was really good of him, but is rust really a problem in the forks? My short roadholders haven't suffered nor have the original dampers in the long roadholders

[IMG]http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c264/deperatedan/image.jpg1_zpsnndvw05a.jpg[/IMG]

this is the threadhttp://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=608558&#Post608558

Dan

I think the reason this was suggested was to stop same metal contact ie ally damper cap and ally rod which will increase rate of wear.

If a steel rod or iron damper cap is used there will be no need for a bush

Some usefull information here

http://www.clubmanracing.com/suspensionforksnorton.php

http://www.clubmanracing.com/suspensionforksnorton.php

This is quite a good site and certainly worth a read. You get all the fork history plus relevant part numbers. Perhaps I missed it but there is no mention of the spacer tube you need to fit between the sealed ball bearings, if these are in the headstock. This is quite important as it helps spread the loading between the 2 ball bearings.

http://www.clubmanracing.com/suspensionforksnorton.php

This is quite a good site and certainly worth a read. You get all the fork history plus relevant part numbers. Perhaps I missed it but there is no mention of the spacer tube you need to fit between the sealed ball bearings, if these are in the headstock. This is quite important as it helps spread the loading between the 2 ball bearings.

Hello well I been read this rubbish about the History of the Roadholder Forks,

well they where designed by Jack E Moore way back in around 1937 I have a photo of Harrod Daniels Riding a Manx 500 with a Set fitted in early 1938 in the race meeting he entered , just puting things stright, and a bit of history, yours anna j

Sorry for not coming back earlier, been very busy and still haven't found out what I fitted. I'll put it on here when I do but it sounds like you are onto another option now anywah, I suspect the are all much the same. Any later fitment will be a big improvement on the origonal set up!

I seem to remember reading somewhere that pre-war only the works riders had tele forks and that they where completely undamped... They werent fitted to customers bikes untill after the war and thats when the basic damping was introduced.

Regards

Andy

Dan,

What lenth damper bodies did you choose in the end?