Ethanol fuel treatment.....or not?

And if the additive does not work where does that leave you in the Spring, with a sprung tank and no come back. Either use E0 or empty the tank at layup, one of these additives Stabil was marketed before Ethanol was a thing and it magically worked with Ethanol when it appeared despite the chemical makers list of uses not including it.

The MSDS says it contains 95% CAS 64742-47-8. Which is LPA® 170 Solvent, this a high-purity mixture of hydrotreated isoparaffins and naphthenics with very low levels of polynuclear aromatics. It is an excellent process solvent with high flash point and narrow boiling range. It is also know as Paraffinic Naphthenic Solvent.

Applications vary widely and include metal lubricants, specialty coatings, pesticide formulations, consumer products, chemical process solvents, oilfied drilling fluids, degreasers, lamp oil, metal rolling oils, freeze point depressants, etc.  

I have written extensively on the topic of ethanol, mostly through the VMCC. This was a time when the VMCC were affiliated with FBHVC . Their then fuel expert was one Matthew Vincent and we exchanged much public correspondence.  This was a little after 2006/07 when E5 was introduced by stealth. The FBHVC failed to warn us about changes to fuel.Instead the FBHVC were making money by endorsing anti ethanol products such as Castrol Valve Master and Millers etc. These products are not the cure to ethanol but simply slow down the damaging effects. As with all of the establishment, non of them were promoting E0, just the so called Green agenda..Build back better indeed!

Bringing us to date, the answer has always been to use E0 petrol. Now Graham doesn't say where he is from. But if he does not live in the South West, Teesside or North of the border then he should be able to go to any Esso Station (Not one attached to a Tesco mini store) and use Esso Synergy Supreme+ with the red label (Ignore the E5 sticker)

I do add some Redex lead replacement for my singles but otherwise I use this fuel with confidence. It does not strip paint either. All of my tanks are full ready for next year, though I do have 3 bikes on standby in case we have a decent spell without the alleged global warming. (Dr David Viner)

I have Norton's not run for a few years but filled up with this fuel and started with no issues.

Legally, in a building not attached to your house you can store 2 gallons in plastic containers OR 5 gallons in a steel can. That info was correct last time I looked a few years ago. Does not include the fuel in your tanks.

PS: We might all be off the road if the Anti Tampering rules proposed goes through without amendment. Under current emergency legislation the ruling elite can do as they please.............Mandate anyone?    

That 107 needle jet  will likely  be too rich with synergy plus.  If you soot the plugs you are also likely to find they will not  ever be happy again.  Many of todays plugs cannot  easily  self clean  once up to temperature  as they  not produced  with the same glazed insulators  as they were. 

Robert

I never had any success trying 107 needle jets on non ethanol Super Unleaded. Standard new 106 jets adjusted at the needle for optimum jetting works fine. In fact the bike has been running perfectly through the Autumn on E10 without any additional jetting mods and still getting 64+mpg overall including my weekly 100 mile motorway ride. 

Not what the keyboard conspirators like to hear but there you have it.

I agree with Neil using E10 since it was introduced with no issues. 

Read the anti tampering laws, we will not be off the road in April. I wish some would read the proposal. In fact it even allows you to fit accessories ie you can fit an aftermarket end can, but it must exceed the original design specifications. If it degrades fuel consumption and emissions or exceeds noise level then you may find yourself in trouble. Strangely, if you fit a silencer and it is not as load as factory fitted, but decreases power again you will be on the wrong side of the legislation. 

New anti tampering laws made simple:

If it aint broken then don't fix it.

And that includes mixing alcohol with petrol.   

An amendment was added, not perfect but which affects our bikes.

We do not intend our proposals to:

• prevent legitimate motorsport activities
• prevent restoration, repairs or legitimate improvements to vehicles, such as classic cars or motorbikes
• negatively impact businesses involved in these activities

I,ve used mostly BP Ultimate and Shell V Power until fuel shortages saw reluctant use of E10. Unexpected good results and lower costs using this fuel for everyday riding has seen it become my normal choice until supplies improve.  Using brands like Tesco, Sainsburys, Texaco etc. Virtually identical mpg to the Super Unleaded fuels with no apparent disadvantages.

If I was worried about E10 corrosion and wasn,t using my bikes I,d simply drain the tanks as John says or add a small amount of engine oil to a full tank.

Neill's quote is reassuring although many (perhaps most) pieces of legislation have unintended consequences. Simple policies planned by Ministers are gold plated by civil servants and reinterpreted in the courts by politically active law firms who exploit the difficulties of putting ideas into words and thus subvert the intentions of legislators in order to advance their own political objectives without the inconvenience of putting themselves up for election. So we'd better watch out.

Here in the U.S.A. we have had ethanol in or fuel since 1974. depending on which state you live in the content of ethanol in fuel can be from E0 to E85. It is a terrible fuel for small engines and engines not designed to use it. I live in northern Wisconsin where we are have many recreational vehicles and can obtain regular grade fuel at E0 and most if not all premium fuel is E0. Our normal regular grade where I live is E10. Two of the big problems with storing a vehicle with untreated ethanol fuels is corrosion and phase separation of the fuel. That is where the ethanol collects so much moisture from the air that the water and fuel separates and the water sinks to the bottom of the tank and causing problems. These problems can range from corrosion to the fueling the engine with water. Sta-Bil does make a stabilizer for ethanol that works well. They also have a ethanol stabilizer for marine use where the humidity is higher. My advice is to not use ethanol enhanced fuels, or if you do to use a stabilizer of known quality.

Greg

Neil Wyatt on Sun, 28/11/2021 wrote

Legally, in a building not attached to your house you can store 2 gallons in plastic containers OR 5 gallons in a steel can. That info was correct last time I looked ...

Currently 30 litres, without telling anyone : https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm

I haven't changed anything on my bikes. I use only E5 petrol and keep the tanks full. I also add a generous splash of 2 stroke oil to the petrol. 

Full tank = minimal damp air absorbtion so no real danger of getting into the dreaded phase separation.

I also turn off the petrol before I reach the house to ensure the carb is empty before the bike is shoved into the shed. 

My 99 was  on  a used 106 needle jet but was running  sooty . I swapped for a  105 and nearly seized it up.  Inspecting the 106 revealed it was worn  oval  although had not done  many thousands of miles.  Bought a new 106  but found it to be missing the bleed drilling , still ran rich  after I drilled the bleeds in. Put in a 105 that i eased out to about 1055 , runs clean but missing a bit of zip.  Going to ease out to closer to 106  to get the zip back. Expect to experiment with settings as modern fuel is not  what they were set up for.   

As a rough rule of thumb its 3 needle jets to 1 needle, the needle getting pulled forwards and backwards over the 4 strokes bashes/wears the needle jets into an oval shape in not too many miles. There are 1055 needle jets for the monobloc carbs for C15 available. 

Gasoline requires an Air/Fuel ratio od about 14 parts by weight of air to 1 part by weight of gasoline. Ethanol requires 10 parts by weight of fuel to 1 part by weight of ethanol.

!0% ethanol will need about (0.9x!4)+(0,1x10) = 13.6 / 1.

This small change  to a slightly richer optimum ratio will be imperceptible in our Nortons.

Charles

interesting calcs, my Commando runs best close to a 12:1 air fuel ratio according to riding impressions, fuel economy and the dyno readout. Richer overall than the theoretical optimum but perfect for my bike. May explain why E5/E10 or non ethanol Super Unleaded give similar results on the road.

I use my 2003 Royal Enfield Bullet 500 which I have converted back to 1960 specs in carburation and exhaust ( it runs so much better than stock, 80mph upright in the saddle) for traveling with. I use the Enfield and not my 1961 Norton or 1971 BSA because I know for sure it has harden valve seats and I can safely use unleaded. The other two machines I add lead additive to the fuel because I am unsure if the seats have been changed. While on trips with the Enfield I have used both E0, which I prefer, or E10 without any problem and with no changes in carburation. I travel in the summer at speeds of 60 to 70 mph for up to 175 miles at a time between fuel stops.

That's just my experience.

Greg

Hi Robert

Have you tried Brisk, from F2 Motorcycles, David Angel tel: 01945 410165

Excellent product. Use on my 650ss

Tim

Have been testing (when able due to health / work on house etc) over past couple of years.

1966   650ss twin concentric 930 mk1 standard settings, very rich. No air filter.

To simplify life (ho, ho) went for single carb manifold and used one of the existing carbs, accepted

logic back in the day was they often did not need any alteration to jets / throttle slide going from 2 to 1 carb; still very rich. Plugs very wet.

Fitted cone air filter and a 3 1/2 slide (instead of 3). Still very rich.

Gone down to 240 main jet,in stages.

As Ethanol runs leaner am worried I will go too lean and am considering taking the bike to local guy who has a Dynamometer / rolling road for advice, armed with my stock of Amal spares. 

Read, last month, our accepted spark plug colour of ideal, brown is no good with ethanol. 

Apparently the ideal plug colour is now "nondescript grey".

Does anyone know if the old Gunson Colour Tune spark plug replacer tester is any use with ethanol petrol?

Any comments / thoughts on the above appreciated.

Tim S

Be aware the formulation changes 4 times a year in the UK to account for temperature, so starting problems may result if the fuel has been left for some while. 

Ethanol may run leaner but realistically most owners run on the rich side, plug colour is poor indicator of where you are in narrow band, my plugs run clean of colour and have done so since the bike wad dyno'd when it was detected that I was very close to being out of rich side of the band.

To try and jet the alleged 2.5% difference in an amal carb is pointless, the wear in most carbs would most probably hide this difference. The carb is fantastic design, we ask it to work in all temperatures, various elevations, different ambient pressures, so detecting a change in 2.5% of fuel quality is very difficult and more than likely beyond the owner. Even just replicating conditions in lab to detect it would be pretty involved. 

Remember, there are also two types of unleaded, in Europe one country, Netherlands uses a different type, the rest use the same. What the USA uses maybe different to what the UK uses, comparison is hard for this reason. 

Hi Tim,  I use a colour tune to check the idle mixture , usually points to a 1/4 to half turn change , However the main variable appears to be the fuel which  is different  every time I go to a new source !.   Certainly  std E05  runs plugs much cleaner than  Synergy plus  and the most reliable clean running fuel was in the IOM   where I was able to use std unleaded  EO.  As most of classic running is on the needle jet (old dodderers)  I would not go lower than std on the main jet. Never managed to get grey plugs since leaded went west.  Try a new needle jet . and check it really is made to 106 ,  I use a slow tapered  oversize needle  and measure with a mike. But its no use checking a worn jet as they wear oval and can't be measured accurately.

Gregory,

We have only had E10 available since September ish and so a bit early to to make any long term predictions. (Bit like effects of an experimental medical intervention)

And Ashley, you are correct about different E formula's. In the UK it is mostly wheat used while in the US of A for example it is corn. I would like to see science reports on the differences. But when I say science; I mean testing the hypothesis in the standard scientific method and certainly NOT 'The science' = consensus science, whatever that covers. (A group of like minded establishment types with a built in majority)  Science should not be decided by votes...

Hi Robert and Ashley

Thanks for yours.

Will try Colourtune when weather is kinder and I can get back into w/shop.

Article in Classic Bike, Nov 21 , from interview with scientist, shows no control over new Petrol

blends, theory is petrol companies will not exceed 5% or 10% advertised quantity of Ethanol and may be a lot less, there are times of shortages of the crops, so no consistency. Conclusion and best advice offered is to try different petrol companies near you and be loyal to the one your engine prefers. Tough on longer journeys away from home area, no consistency. 

Amal parts; having read stories of poor quality pattern parts I stick with Amal, Burlen Fuels and the Norton dealers supply. My plan is to get as near as practical using existing carb' then order a new one with the settings.

Am following this thread with interest.

Tim

From research starting 2 decades ago and until today what  I seem to still recall.

Corn, wheat rice are all in the grasses family which are used to make bourbon scotch saki & beer(Budweiser . All are from a fungi single cell animal, yeast,  that convert carbohydrates to ethanol. I doubt this resultant component is different regardless of the flavor of grass. Ethanol is equally distilled out of the fermentation mash.

Similarly a person with diabetes, like me, eats a carbohydrate whether wheat/ bread, pasta, potatoe, corn your body always makes glucose. To much carbohydrate regardless the type, and you are toxic with only glucose...not sucrose or other sugars...back to E-10

The netherlands variation discusses the modified catalytic cracking methology of petroleum to get a different chemical gasoline blend result and does not mention ethanol as part of the subject.

There are several types of "fuel" additive.

antifreeze   Isopropyl  alcohol and  Methanol

fuel stabilizer isopropyl alcohol Methanol and aeromatic light hydrocarbons, igniters to replace the ones that evaporate from sitting. The original fuels are seasonally adjusted to keep the VOC's down. 

Seafoam is a brand, their "marine" product has 3x more humidity absorbing Isopropyl. Unknown if the current product actually "treats ethanol". 

"Compatible with ethanol" same as fuel stabilizer above, just original stabilizer...

Unless it says "treats ethanol" it is not an organic enzyme ethanol additive.The enzyme attaches to the ethanol and inhibits or slows the chaining process of the ethanol using water as the chemical chaining catalyst. This molecule process results in the heavy chain that fall out of solution as a corrosive sludge that we all enjoy cleaning out of our carb jets and passages.

Additionally  When ethanol is in contact with rubbers, plastics polyestar resins will  be chemically damage start at differing rates depending on the type of synthetic. Sometimes, though not usually, the damage may ocassionaly reverse once the ethanol is removed . Neither stabilizers or enzyme  have no effect on this damage.

Any updates or corrections gladly accepted.

I forgot to mention I set my carburator to the specs listed in the 1960 Royal Enfield Bullet workshop manual.