Newbie Questions About 1930 Model 19

Some magnetos have slack wire advance and others have tight wire advance. I don’t know which yours has but you can figure it out     yourself by removing the points cover and observing when the points open. Remember - advanced ignition means the the points open sooner relative to the position of the piston. You can remove the spark plug or hold the valve lifter open to make it easier to turn the engine over. Place the advance lever in one position - say all the way back placing the cable under tension ( tight wire ) then turn the engine over and observe the points and the cam that opens them . If difficult to see place a thin slip of paper between the contacts and lightly pull on it as you turn the engine over - the points will release the paper when they begin to open. Then place the lever in the opposite position and repeat the process and note when the points open . You can make some sort of index mark with a piece of tape to note where they open relative to a fixed point on the magneto. I don’t know if your mag has a fixed ring cam with rotating points or fixed points with a rotating cam but it does not matter - just note the direction of rotation of either as you turn the engine over. The position of the lever that has the points opening sooner in the rotation sequence is the advanced position.

That is an incredibly beautiful machine. Try to resist the urge to "improve it", appart from those modern bar grips/throttle, Hunters in the uk may have something suitable. Spark plug gap? smaller than coil ignition a guess,20 thou .OIl in the box ?,a guess,50 weight ,and if it leaks out much too fast ,half oil half fluid grease. Hard to kick over?,this is a mans bike,man up!. Find a position on the mag lever where it does not try to break your leg,mark it with a couple of dots of nail varnish to align for starting,then you will have confidence to kick properly. The Bike does have a few fittings /finishes that are missing or incorrect , research needed.

Richard,

Go to www.vintagenorton.com

They have pretty much all the info you require plus a lot more. Handbook,parts lists etc available to download etc.

Ps there is also a similar aged M19 in the Titch Allen vintage road test books which might interest you.  Cheers

Alan

... is to give it too much throttle (or even worse, twist the grip back and forth as you try to start). Just cracked open - 1/16" or so - is what you want otherwise there isn't enough "suck" to get the fuel through the pilot jet. If the mag is in decent condition, half way between full advance and full retard should work although if you've worked out which is which 1/3 back from full advance tends to be around the sweet spot. If there's an air slide it should be closed; tickle the carb for a few seconds but not till petrol drips out. It's often worth gently turning the engine over a couple of times with the valve lifter raised to get some mixture into the system. With the valve lifter lifted it should be easy to spin the engine - if not there's something amiss.

Your ease over compression with the valve lifter sounds right. But then you need the "long swinging kick" rather than a lunge which tends to suit the Commando more. The idea is to use the flywheel to get the engine spinning so that it has enough way on it to get past the next compression and hopefully fire.

These bikes are of course all different and it will take a while to get the knack. My own rather later ES2 is a very reliable first kick starter.

That is a beautiful machine. I love the tank colour, and inverted levers are the right period feature. The saddle cover is excellent...they don't make 'Rexine' like that any more (although I'd be delighted if someone corrected me on that). 

It's most likely to be tight wire advance.

Being that date it has a decent size drum so it should have good brakes.

Some use semi-fluid grease in the gearbox. Otherwise use engine oil.

Please don't take it apart just for fun!  'Fettling' for no very good reason  is all too often fatal for machines!

The magneto obviously works, so that's good news. When they fail, it is usually when they get hot and the capacitor breaks down until it cools down again.

Go along to your local NOC branch and get to know people who can give assistance.

Plug gap 15 to 17 though, and no resistance ignition cable or cap. And spend your evenings reading all about Norton Singles!

David, they do make 'Rexine'... I can't post links on this message board using Firefox...but Google R.C. Moss -  Bentley  - Rexine and you'll see that the famous Bentley restorers have bought and restored the last surviving machine...I just haven't plucked up the courage yet to ask them how much they would ask for a roll of black...Someone like the Brough Club should / could though and then sell it on by the yard.

Richard:

Do you mean physically hard to turn the engine with the kickstarter or do you mean just hard to get started?

Mike

Hi Richard,

  I zoomed in on your picture and it looks like the original mag has been replaced by a later BTH KC1 from late '30s or '40s. This should be anti-clockwise rotation and looking at the cable entry for the advance and retard, it looks like a slack wire advance which is the desirable type to have. As Ian suggests pull the lever back 1/3rd, push forward the air lever as this works in the opposite direction to the ignition cable. When the engine is warm the ignition lever should be closed (slack) and the air lever fully open (tight).

P.S.    Sorry, I posted this at the same time as you, so you probably know the kick-start stuff, but the mag identification might help.

My standard Amal tends to leak from the overflow just above the base cap anyway. Mine is fine when running, but quickly starts to leak out if left with engine stopped and taps open. There is no Viton tipped option as far as I can tell, so I suspect you might never get it to stay dry. I try to remember to turn off the tap even if leaving the bike for only a few minutes. Do you have other dry ones?

Owners replace or try to re-seat the float needle  but the wear is often in the seating in the chamber. I had an odd combination of carb parts which left the fuel level too high, an extra slot cut in the needle allowed me to lower the fuel level . Getting enough mixture in at kicking speed is crucial and I had to bore out pilot passages to arrive at the settings that (in my case) Rudge had found to work .Very different to other similar capacity machines probably due to Rudge having 4 valves.Rudge used a retard lever ,a compression release valve lifter and a half compression cam device all to aid starting. So at 74 years old with siatica I fully understand your issue. 

Richard, do you know if the leaking is caused by too high level or if it's the needle valve that leaks?

Mike

 Hi again Richard,

   One thing to check is the brass float. This is a possible cause as it is made from 2 halves soldered together with a tube through it , which is also soldered. Any of these joints can fracture and allow the float to fill with fuel. When you take it out, shake it and listen for any fuel swilling inside and test it in a bowl of petrol to see if it is buoyant. Also the clip on the float can lose it's tension and let the clip slip out of the notch. When you order new parts for the carb, check they fit your early type as most replica parts seem to be for the 276 or 289 series.

The old way of checking floats was to have them submerged in a pan with water. When heated, air bubbles comes out.

Fuel level is too high. Read my earlier post . Some bikes stands are strong some are weak. I had to repair/ reinforce stands on most bikes I have owned. If the engine is a dry sump design then an intermittent return should be visible in the tank. If the motor is not returning oil it will still run for a fair time before it wrecks itself so that needs sorting.

If it is a 1930 model it will have a total loss oiling system with a Best & Lloyd type 9200 mechanical pump mounted on the timing cover and driven off the inlet cam. This pump has a clear cover on the top and you should see oil dripping into the feed  bowl. You can adjust the drip rate as shown in the manual.

As long as you add about 180mL of oil into the crankcases when draining or changing the oil,  the amount required to be delivered by the pump is not critical.  My pump is set about 1/4 from fully closed and the bike runs very well.

Set it much higher and oil drips from the bottom of the push rod tubes and engine breather. 

I found these old carburetors over time seem to become porous or crack in the castings, so leaking into the body or flow out of the intake. The other problem is soft soldered brass floats leach lead and fill up slowly with petrol over time,hence a high petrol level. Ethanol is the curse if one leaves it a long time standing. I have a number of old Lawn Mowers made for leaded petrol that have this problem. Magneto points gaps usually 12 to 14 thou., plug gap 25 thou. Don't forget to check the valve clearances, especially with ethonal petrol. Lovely bike, all you need now is an electric start! I will duck now!

Fuel dripping from the body will usually stop when riding as its being sucked into the motor. Dripping when stopped is often fuel level and can be caused by poor float action  ,bad gasket,wear in needle seating,faulty tickler,wrong base nut ,Wrong angle chamber,wrong needle,tank getting pressurised etc etc.

It's usually quoted as .018" - .020" for magneto ignition. .025" may be on the wide side for easy starting although once running should be fine.

Both my old and new 276 carbs slowly leak and overflow when the engine is not running. The cut off is metal to metal so it's not surprising. I've tried polishing the needle and seat, but now I just try to remember to turn off the fuel when the engine stops.