tuning for ethanol mixed fuels

Fit a phenolic spacer at the manifold/carb flange as heat can be an issue. std grade e95 may run a little weak, a change to super grade may avoid the ethanol but can also make your plugs run dirty.E95 is supposed to burn faster so a degree or two less advance may be needed. I would stick to the std plug grade and be aware that ancient plugs can be sucessfully cleaned and re-used but current plugs once sooted up don't respond well to cleaning as the insulators are generally unglazed and porous now.If you ride in freezing conditions the carb may be more prone to freezing. E95 will dissolve some tank liners giving leaks ,missing plugs,sticky carb slides,stuck valves and rings. I also think its more poisonous than leaded fuel. Good old EU, thanks for that.

If the UK is still in the EU in 2020 (God forbid) the directive is to have E10 (!0% Ethanol) in all pump fuel using the current EN228 standard. R.E.D

Meanwhile outside of Scotland, Teesside, and the South West you will be able to buy Esso Supreme Synergy guaranteed to be E0 untill 2020, unless the UK tightens up Ed Miliband's 2008 Climate Change Act and reduces the amount of E0 fuel available.

Make sure it is ESSO Synergy because some Esso stations are Tesco Expresses and sell Tesco fuel under the ESSO logo but pumps are marked up as EN228. (Not Synergy)

Fuel with Ethanol has a much shorter shelf life and can do a lot of damage and not much good if you have a few bikes that are not run for weeks. Ethanol has only 70% of the energy of petrol and so expect a lower MPG. Better still, avoid the stuff!

Some organisations such as the FBHVC call 5% Ethanol the legacy grade! (For when E10 is imposed) Just where were these people when tank liners and fibrerglass tanks were melting with this stuff, hoses were springing leaks and carb parts were destroyed. Some legacy!

Ethanol is banned for aviation use for good safe reason. The same should apply for historic vehicles.

I would run at 30 degrees fully advanced and stick to top grade petrol - avoid supermarket cheapest. A splash of 2 stroke oil in the petrol tank won't do any harm. Otherwise, don't panic and enjoy riding the bike. A lot to be said for a sensible low-compression engine! As well as my Atlas, I run a 1951 BSA A7, a very similar state of tune to your 88, and have had no problems.

Gordon is right, you may have the happy experience of finding no problem at all. But don't let your guard down.I have heard a number of owners say this and deride those who have problems as harbingers of doom. Later you hear they narrowly avoided dissaster with fuel leaking in the garage or fuel tanks that fold up. (modern plastic or fiberglass).

For the primary a monograde 20 if you can find it, I think its used in some farming applications . I have tried 20-50 in my 99 but am suffering with a little too much oil going down the guides so i'm going back to a 40 monograde to see if that helps. If the primary leaks keep the level to the minimum and check the case is clear of the propstand bracket.

Previously paul_standeven wrote:

I was thinking of going to 30 degrees of advance, so the advice concurs. I just dug out the spark plugs, they are almost-new NGK BP6ES, and thankfully, being late '80s, properly glazed quality plugs. It's a freshly rebuilt Dave Hills magneto. (in New Zealand, a quality builder now retired)

My inlet manifold is insulated from the head, and the carb. Another worry is whether the nylon fuel filter and float needle in the carb will cope, also I have a see-through plastic petrol feed pipe. .

TY for the heads-up on Esso Synergy petrol.

Recommnedations on oil? I used to run it on 20W50. What brand is good?

I hear from other sources that ATF isn't the wonder-oil for primary chains (causes gumming in the clutch), and have been recommended Motul, but have no idea which one to choose

Paul, Only Esso Synergy Supreme (Super unleaded) with the exclusion of areas as stated above is guaranteed E0.

As for primary oil in pre commando's. If you can't find SAE 20, when I run out I use SAE 30. It also comes in handy in my singles for topping up when running at the back end of the year.

PS: if you do have to use petrol containing ethanol, it's not a good idea to leave it in your tank when laid up and always run your fuel pipes and carbs dry!

PS: You mentioned New Zealand: Not much ethanol over there. Just some in Gull petrol I believe.

Although I live in Devon I've just learned that my local garage (BP) gets its petrol from Southampton so the Ultimate is E0, result!

Knowlege is power

Dan. Do share with us; what part of Devon?

Just be careful gents, I say this because the last time I wrote to BP they would no longer confirm the ethanol free message as previous. Personally I believe there is no change as yet but at least ESSO have stated they have no intention of adding Ethanol outside of Scotland, Teesside and the South West.

Of course, if we are still in the EU by 2020 then the Renewable Fuels Directive will apply to make all pump petrol E10.

Still, there is always the kit you can buy as in the Classic Bike article, November 2015. Regards E5, you can pay for an additive to help reduce the harmful effects of a solvent you never asked for!

One final bit of advice: If in doubt ask the tanker driver when you see him. BP Ultimate used to come from a separate depot. Ethanol is added from a sealed tanker at the distribution point, hence the driver will know.

My 16H is the only bike I have left with a Petseal tank and so far it remains perfect and so the petrol I have been using has been E0. We don't yet know the full extent of damage caused by ethanol and the environmental damage caused by ethanol emissions have only just started to be investigated!

It's all political!

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Dan. Do share with us; what part of Devon?

Honiton ..... Windmill garage on the A35 just out of town. I'll make some more investigations but the person behind the counter seemed pretty sure as she'd been through it with another classic biker a couple of days ago.

Hi Dan.

Thanks. I know the one. It also supplies autogas. I used to occasionally fill up my Subaru gasser there on my way from Cornwall to Sussex. Still 85 miles from me, but the nearest so far, if you are able to confirm it. I have asked pump attendants in the past and they didn't know, but as Neil says, the tanker driver will.

To be sure, I have been getting my BP Ultimate when in Sussex, and before that Murco s/unleaded, until they were taken over. The Murco service station near Ringwood in Hampshire got it's deliveries from Plymouth; all very confusing.

Murco were always honest about the E situation and you dealt with one man as a rule (Sorry I forgot his name) Some of their fuel at certain stations were supplied by other companies but they were always able to say what an identified service station sold. A far cry from the dogs dinner we have today. (Except for ESSO... well done them) Murco were the last petrol company to add ethanol in their Std 95 Ron unleaded. The month was October about a year before they closed their refinery, but I forgot the year. The Super unleaded supplied by Murco's own refinery never did add ethanol and the said gentleman would be able to tell you which station was safe (ie they delivered to) I used to get mine from Beverley, E Yorks, about 40 miles away but almost next door to the now closed local DVLA office.

But after all these years, don't you think a pump should be able to state the content of ethanol? Government say that ethanol content within what Ed Miliband's 2008 Act legislated for (RFfTO) was a matter for the industry. I think they meant the government subsidised ethanol industry. Currently the Ethanol costs more than the petrol it replaces, all to give you a lower MPG and damage the fuel systems of historic vehicles. But the real reason is so government can meet their EU renewable targets (Inc windmills and solar panels) Historic vehicles don't matter to the establishment!

I've not even mentioned that the Ethanol has to be tankered to the distribution point and added there, so don't let anyone tell you they can't take it out when they don't have to put it in, other than for pathetic political reasons.

We need to do far more to preserve E0 fuel for our Norton's. The Establishment inc the FBHVC are not helping, they are supporting E5 as a 'legacy fuel,' the very stuff that melted Petseal, etc. You can't educate wood! All in it together...

I've emailed BP, they promise a reply within 3 days, lets see!

Try Tygon fuel pipe. It is one of the few pipes the stays pliable and doesn't go hard with age. It's yellow in colour though, I suppose you could put some heat shrink over it if that concerned you. I'm not sure that heat shrink would survive contact with petrol. Tyson pipe is not that cheap but you don't end up replacing it every five minutes.

Halfords black fuel pipe works admirably. This week I asked for 5/16" fuel pipe. "We only have metric" came the reply. So I asked for 8mm. And so it was handed over. I opened it and behold, printed on the pipe is 5/16" fuel/oil. Sigh. Anyway, it works.

Paul,

You can buy rocker oil feed pipe and fittings from RGM, they also do a rather nice braded stainless set ready made up. a bit expensive though.

Regards NZ, I have seen a hydro power plant in the North Island and stood on the bridge over the river but disappointed to see row after row of windmills on the hill tops on my way North from Wanganui.

I reckon the historic vehicle movement in NZ has more punch than in the UK or indeed Europe. Or maybe the MP's are more representative since the removal of Helen Clark?

To date, no one has explained why 10% ethanol fuels, like Discol, caused no problems when available up to the 60's. If there are issues with the modern fuel, possibly it is due to other unknown additives.

Whether, or not, there is ethanol in Tesco petrol I neither know nor care. Last year, as an experiment, I bought 5 litres of Tesco fuel, and put samples in various different types of plastic containers, none were affected. My 2 stroke petrol strimmer was left from from October until March, using this fuel (with the tank half full), it started on the 3rd pull. My '54 Dominator 88 runs quite happily on any pump fuel I put in the tank (addmitidly this is unsealed). The fuel pipe is braided plastic, and the float original. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!".

John, we have been through this many times and my first answer is not to try to break it.

I remember Discol, I believe it was the only fuel back then that added alcohol. As I explained a long while back, 50 years ago very few people kept a collection of machines laid up for any period. Most were bread and butter machines used on a daily basis but in addition to this, you had a choice of non alcohol fuel, most of it as opposed to today so the chances of having high volumes of damaging solvent in your tank were much reduced on average.

Many of us have suffered ill effects of ethanol contamination, be it tank sealant failure, hose failure, paint stripping or carb parts failure, these are serious and expensive issues. A solution is to use E0 fuel. As you are happy with ethanol fuels then carry on as you have plenty of choice but please let us have our choice.

If there are other unknown additives then how come we don't know about them and why have they not put them in E0 petrol or at least not causing issues there? Just remember that Ethanol was added in 2006, the public were not warned. Maybe the DECC thought we wouldn't notice? But some some of us did, John!

Interesting reading! Here in the antipodes it is legislation that every petrol outlet must stipulate at the pump the maximum ethanol content (if applicable)expected in the fuel being purchased. Currently, unleadedE10 94RONis handled by only a couple ofbrandswith E85 being very infrequent. The 91, 95 and 98RON unleadedfuels are ethanol free.The ethanol fuels are not popular due to the publicity of the increased consumption compared to non-ethanol for the same distance travelled and are only $0.02 cheaper per litre. Today the 91RON is AUD$1.09 per litre.

Paul

I have some plastic containers I have used in the garage for years, I poured in some e95 to clean a few nuts and bolts , the bottom of the containers dissolved before i finished the job,thats never happened before.

I tend to use white spirit for that reason! Went to start the strimmer today, and found I'd left it half full of tescos finest over the winter - feared the worst, but it started second pull and ran like a good un!

As mentioned in another post, there are over 14.5 million vehicles registered in the U.K., the number of complaints about ethanol are minimal. Many plastic containers do deteriorate with age, if they have been left in a garage for years they are probably unsuitable for use with any solvent. Discol was not the only fuel containing ethanol, available until the 60's, remembering, and having used a product, are two different things. I am neither pro, nor anti ethanol. However, it has been used, world wide, as an octane booster, almost since the invention of the petrol engine.

John, the point is that we should have a choice. There are environmental groups and political organisations (Same thing) who don't want us to have a choice.

The Ford Model T was designed to run on alcohol produced by farmers. (I think they called it moonshine) But if our Norton's were made to run with a solvent in the fuel then why did so may components fail?

Ethanol does not need any support, John, as it is in most UK petrol and you can use it if you want to. This has cost enough already, without having to E proof more new parts + an additive to take away the ILL effects of something you don't need or want anyway.

Just leave us a choice, bad enough having to go miles out of the way for E0. How Green is that?

Trouble is 90% of vehicle owners don't give a monkey's cuss, and my guess is the market would be/ is indifferent to classic vehicle owners, there's just not enough money in it for them to bother. We could campaign of course and become more political!

To be honest I've not had much problem with ethanol in petrol. I drain my tanks after use, and use the old fuel in the car/mower ( especially nice if its from the ra ing two strokes ...... Cutting the grass and sniffing castor is a pleasure in itself!

Depends how many bikes you have and how much free time, Dan?

I keep all my tanks full of E0 with no issues and the stuff doesn't go off and the same with my MG. Goodness knows what classic car owners will do during the lay up with no E0?

It's about having the choice.

OK Dan,

You have had your 3 days + a week. What did BP say to you?

Ok they replied on Sunday:

Thank you for your email concerning the fuel sold by BP.

Bioethanol is present in nearly all regular unleaded petrol being sold by fuel suppliers in the UK today. Bioethanol is also becoming increasingly present in the UKâs super-unleaded (premium/higher octane) petrol too; this is because, in compliance with the UK governmentâs Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation, fuel suppliers have been required to increase the quantity of bio fuels in their transport fuels since 2008. As a consequence, the inclusion of bioethanol in our BP Ultimate Unleaded supply chain is an evolving situation and we are therefore unable to give you categorical assurances as to its absence or presence. However we can assure you that â as required by theThe Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 â the content of bioethanol in our BP Ultimate Unleaded gasoline will never be more than 5% by volumeuntil 1st January 2017 at the earliest.

All BP fuels, Regular and BP Ultimate, contain special ingredients which have cleaning and protection properties for the engine. BP Ultimate hasbeen rigorously tested on a wide range of vehicles, covering hundreds of thousands of miles, in various conditions. Its advanced formula offers a wide range of benefits compared to ordinary fuels, including better fuel efficiency and enhanced performance, , all of which give long term benefit and value to the consumer and their vehicle.

BP does not supply 100% bioethanol as a retail fuel in the UK.

Thank you for taking the time to bring the matter to our attention and for allowing us the opportunity to respond to your concerns at this time.

Needless to say I've written back and said

Dear Tamara Thank you for your reply. I run a number of classic vehicles and the presence of ethanol can cause significant problems. While I can understand that the situation is changing I do not understand how you do not know whether any ethanol is in your fuel or not especially as you know all the additives that are in it.So can you please explain in a little more detail why you don't know if it has any ethanol or not. I like BP fuel and would like to continue using it.Kind regards

I'll keep you posted!

Thanks Dan,

As you can see, this is a complete dogs dinner and intended to be so. It's a good job they don't put nuts in it!

Ed Miliband's 2008 Climate Change Act made it legal to put this rubbish in petrol up to 5% without a word. Thankfully the EU have dropped (Last week) their R.E.D to make 10% ethanol compulsory across the EU. All the UK needs to do is rescind the 2008 Ed Miliband Act that is costing jobs and electricity up 133% since 2005!

The solvent was added in 2006 and many of us found out when the tank sealants etc failed. There was no warning and the government thought they would get away with it unnoticed!

At least ESSO are committed to E0 in their Suprrme Synergy (Except in SW, Scotland and Teesside.

Oh dear, that is BP Ultimate off the list now, then. The list of 1 appears to be Esso Supreme Energy, who are saying what BP were saying until recently. To quote Fraser in Dad's Army - 'We're doomed!'

Thanks for finding this out Dan. Until now I have been filling up jerry cans with BP when I am 'up country' i.e. not in the West Country. I will look out for Esso stations now, but only until next January.....

We will have to dig deep and ensure all components of our fuel systems are ethanol-proof. The tank linings are an area of concern, along with fibreglass tanks, which this solvent will eat away irreversibly in no time. My proddie racer, for example, certain models of Greeves trials bikes; no doubt many of you can add to the list.

A new alloy tank for the proddie will cost £600 in bare metal, plus £200 to paint, plus the cost of upgrading the fuel system; that will total a grand, and that is just one bike. I have a few.... Even the alloy tank is not safe from the stuff, and will need to be drained between use.

This is madness....

Not just any madness Ian, but Green political madness!

All this grief so you can enjoy a lower MPG!

I shall continue to campaign against this abomination!

Keep at it Neil!

Yesâ? Sometimes Neil I do think that you are saying the right thing but perhaps once or twice too often? Do have a little rest sometimes.

This world does not work on logic or absolute fairness, it is driven by political solutions. Having ethanol in our fuel is illogical and ineffective, but you, and no one else, is capable of changing the situation. Why? because 99% of the population could not care less, while the politicians and environmentalists can claim a win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO1hsaxaMXo

makes you wonder if it works.

We are a long time in a box, Norman and that is the time that we can say nothing. Other countries mange just fine without putting this solvent in their fuel. It is about choice and we see choices taken away from us, this is just another. I have never accepted rubbish and don't intend to start now.

Yes it works Barry, though you don't need the die as you can easily see the water and ethanol mix. There is a kit advertised in the November 2015 Classic Bike.

Note the light aircraft. Ethanol is not allowed for aviation use on Safety grounds. It is just for suckers like us to help meet governments mad renewable targets.

One question that needs to be asked is where to dispose the water and ethanol mix? Think I'll ask my MP.

Had another thought: If BP can't confirm E0 at a given outlet then the fuel needs to be tested and made E0.

I shall ask them what provision they are making for disposing of the water / Ethanol mix surplus to requirements.

Neil . i will give that a go.. why isn't it marked up on the garage pumps that ethanol fuel will damage vehicles of a certain age . just a thought i suppose you could distil the ethanol out of the water left overs and use it in an ethanol burner / fire. and remember folks don't try this at home go next door. lol

That video was a joke, does anyone really believe a manned aircraft would be refueled, with a plastic can and funnel? Having removed the ethanol, from unleaded fuel, the octane rating would be reduced, making it unsuitable for most aircraft (with the possible exception of a Tiger Moth). Leaded fuel is still available for aviation, we didn't have any choice when that was withdrawn from road use, the same cries of "Classic vehicles are being damaged" were heard then. Anyone who can afford a collection of vehicles can afford to make them ethanol proof, if they believe it is causing problems. As to how to dispose of the water/ethanol mixture, well, you have just made some expensive anti-freeze!

Hi Barry, the legislation that went through mid 2005 and made it that up to 5% Ethanol could be used without any warning notices. A warning will only happen if some fuel companies start supplying E10 for which our politicians approved a couple of years ago. (But essentially more than 5%)

BP don't mark up their pumps in my experience but if you go to Esso Synergy pumps you will see 95 Ron unleaded marked up as EN225 (5% Ethanol) BUT Supreme Synergy Super unleaded is marked up as BS7800. This is a standard that does not have to contain Ethanol but since ESSO have said that outside of the SW, Teesside and Scotland they have no intention of adding ethanol then you should be OK. Use it or lose it.

We may end up with a lot of water and ethanol to dispose of. There might be a fortune waiting for someone who can separate it?

Hi John . get your point about the video. it was more about the procedure to remove the ethanol and not the aircraft refueling. i suppose time will tell about the effects of ethanol fuels.

Hi Neil. thanks for the info all very interesting . makes you wonder how things will pan out in the future.