A old forum no doubt,but which OIL?

Hi Paul -- definitely no expert, and probably in the same state of confusion about the many different opinions. I think it doesn't matter to much, because if there was an obviously better solution there would be no debate.

What follows is my summary of previous threads:

If you've got an external cartridge oil filter, it's OK to use modern semi-synthetic detergent oil, and this may -- or may not -- work better than a traditional mineral oil. If you don't have this filter, you're better sticking to non-detergent mineral oil. There doesn't seem to be any real agreement about multigrade vs monograde.

There is a concern that the high oil temperatures you get in an air cooled motorcycle engine cause relatively quick breakdown of the important components of the oil. So keeping to the schedule of oil changes, or even doing it more often, might be more important than precisely what oil you use.

I think people who know what they are talking about will be along shortly to offer their thoughts.

Ed previously wrote:

I think people who know what they are talking about will be along shortly to offer their thoughts.

Heck, I hope not!

After an engine rebuild, running in and changing oil after 50 miles 500 miles 1000 miles, I'd clocked up 2000 miles and discovered a problem that needed the engine apart again (which is another story).

I couldn't believe it when I saw the condition of the engine. The new cam was starting to wear the lobes, the new rings were also badly worn. I showed my engineer the cam and he said straight away "It's your oil" as he'd seen it before with Ford Pinto engines wearing cams etc and it was down to the oil. I was using 20/50 Valvoline, which I was told was a good oil.

I've also spoken to Nick at Andover and I know he uses a semi synthetic in his Commando. So after talking to Antig Engineering (speedway bikes) which is near me, I decided to use RockOil TRM 20/60 synthetic oil. It is a race spec oil and seems perfect if you ride your bike hard, I've had no oil related problems and I now use it in my Dommie too.

I have also spoken to other Norton "Experts" and been told straight 40 is the oil to use, and I'm sure it would be fine. But after 2 expensive engine rebuilds I'll stick with the TRM and regular oil changes

http://www.rockoil.co.uk/cm/pdf/rock_oil_low_res_brochure_road_and_race.pdf

Had my 76` Commando for 21 years. I was recommended to use a 20/50 oil, and i`ve used 20/50 from a well known hardware store ever since. The cartridge filter gets changed regularly and usually if i drain any out of the sump when its been standing i will top it up with fresh oil. Back in 1990 the oil was £2.99 a gallon ! , now i pay about £8.00.

Just done a trip to Wales, 650 miles, bike ran superbly much to the dismay of my travelling companions on much newer bikes, who were convinced at some point that my old relic would break down.

Lost 1/2 a cup of oil in 650 miles, not bad for a 36 year old Commando still on original bores, barrel and head stripped about 15 years ago for cosmetics only. Over 50,000 miles on the clock.

Hope this helps.

The only time I have had rapid wear on cam lobes was when I fitted a new cam from a reputable supplier and found that it had not been case hardened during manufacture. Yours should not be showing any wear. Valvoline 20-50 has worked fine for me for many a mile. Don't understand why the rings have worn badly either. This should not have happened. I would look further than the just the brand of oil to discern the actual cause.

Previously wrote:

The only time I have had rapid wear on cam lobes was when I fitted a new cam from a reputable supplier and found that it had not been case hardened during manufacture. Yours should not be showing any wear. Valvoline 20-50 has worked fine for me for many a mile. Don't understand why the rings have worn badly either. This should not have happened. I would look further than the just the brand of oil to discern the actual cause.

Good point Gordon. I throughly believe the materials that are usedin replacement partsparticularlywear parts such as cams and piston rings do not meet the original material specifications. Its happened to me personally and friends on a number of parts. The price we pay for parts is outrageous and we are not getting the right quality in some cases.

In a previous blog a NOC member said he had bought a non runner as a sacrificial parts store as he was fed up of purchasing poor replacement parts. Initially expensive but if the bike is kept long term well worthwhile as long as, of course, the bike has not already been rebuilt with replacement parts.

Hopefully the Norton Club spares can expand to the point where we have a reliable quality supplier.

Previously wrote:

The only time I have had rapid wear on cam lobes was when I fitted a new cam from a reputable supplier and found that it had not been case hardened during manufacture. Yours should not be showing any wear. Valvoline 20-50 has worked fine for me for many a mile. Don't understand why the rings have worn badly either. This should not have happened. I would look further than the just the brand of oil to discern the actual cause.

Good point Gordon. I throughly believe the materials that are usedin replacement partsparticularlywear parts such as cams and piston rings do not meet the original material specifications. Its happened to me personally and friends on a number of parts. The price we pay for parts is outrageous and we are not getting the right quality in some cases.

In a previous blog a NOC member said he had bought a non runner as a sacrificial parts store as he was fed up of purchasing poor replacement parts. Initially expensive but if the bike is kept long term well worthwhile as long as, of course, the bike has not already been rebuilt with replacement parts.

Hopefully the Norton Club spares can expand to the point where we have a reliable quality supplier.

If bike cams are anything like their contemporaries in cars from that era, you need loads of cam lube at the rebuild, and a running in ritual to ensure the case hardening isn't damaged. At least that's what I was told, and I've had no probs with car engine rebuilds in that respect. I was also told not to use synthetic oil for the running in period because the piston rings would never bed in properly. OK after 500 miles or so though.

If you are brave enough it has been said that you should do the piston/barrel running-in without any oil in the bores! In other words, assemble the engine with plenty of cam lube but with dry bores the way they used to with racing engines (I'm told). Les Emery of Norviladvises to always use monogrades unless you have a proper oil filter in the system. I presume he follows his own advice when he builds "new" Dommies to order?

I don't want to recirculate swarf, bore and bearing grindings etc.without an oil filter to protect the most vulnerable parts - the very soft big-end bearings. Multi-grades/detergent oilsare intended for use with an oil filter as they keep this crud circulating until it's picked up by the filter.

Cheers, Lionel

OK, maybe the fault was my cam..? Who knows. It was bought from Les Emery and I could see when I bought it, it wasn't the same as one from Andover Norton. I rebuilt the engine with a new cam and followers from Andover and will always buy parts direct from them now. When you buy from these other Norton parts suppliers, you don't know if you're gettinggenuineNorton parts or their own parts that they've patented with a well know Norton name and put on it. Hopefully I'll have no more trouble, and yes, I probably am being a bit paranoid about my oil because of it. I maybe using an oil of a higher spec than needed but better safe than sorry. I would be happy using straight 40 Rockoil as I use it in other Norton's I've got, but I wont use ordinary 20/50 again.

My name is Guido. This may be my first post so hello to all.

What no one has mentioned was that the correct oil to use has to be high in ZDDP for use in flat tappet engines. I build high performance VW engines which are flat tappet engines. I learned the hard way that using the conventional oil we have today are low in ZDDP due to the use of catalitic converters which ZDDP ruins in modern cars and bikes.

Our bike are 40 years and older and back then a higher content ofZDDP was in all oils.

With that said the oils with the highZDDP contents are Valvoline VR-1, Brad Penn and other racing oils.

I flattened a cam using Castrol conventional oil in under 3000 miles in one of my VW engines. The lobes were almost completely round.

I use VR-1 50w in my 74' 850 and 30w in my VW engines and haven't lost a cam yet.

You can feel and smell the difference in the 2 oils, conventional and racing oil.

Sure it cost more but it's cheaper than an engine rebuild.

I agree with Guido's comments about old engines being better suited to an oil with zinc based anti-wear additives. However, plenty of people do use modern oils (which are formulated to suit emissions and catalytic convertor requirements) without problems. So why don't they get camshaft problems? I am intrigued. Being oid fashioned, I use Morris's classic lubricants in my elderly machines. No camshaft problems so far (except for the one with no case hardening mentioned above).

In reply to the comments of Gordon and Guido, all crankcase oils use ZDDPs( Zinc di-alkyl-di-thio-phosphates) as Antiwear/Antioxidants. Some modern oils have been formulated to meet specifications which limit the amount of Sulphur and Phosphorous in the oil in order to protect catalytic converters. However these oils must pass the same stringent tests for valve train wear as their higher ZDDP counterparts and must be suitable for 50K kms sevice. Many will use alternative chemistries to supplement the wear protection of the ZDDP.

With regard to cam wear, it may well be that some aftermarket cams from certain aftermarket suppliers have not received the correct heat treatment , but it is also worth remembering that on assembly and first start up, pre-oil the cam with a quantity of oil poured down the push rod tubes. I once did some work with a major vehicle manufacturer who had catastrophic cam failure problems with an OHV engine. We found that it took 9 minutes for oil to get to the cam via rocker box and splash from the crank by which time the cam was ruined.

When you look at Norvil's "Teck Talk" by Les Emery you'll see how much he stresses the proper lubing ofa cam beforeeventurning the engine over - he says:

Research indicates that most camshafts that wear out start to fail during the first few moments of operation. Many camshafts are irreparably damaged before the engine is started, because the basic rules of camshaft running-in have not been followed.

Be warned!

Cheers, Lionel