De-Luxe frame number prefix

I had a look at my 99 deluxe just now. The frame is stamped R14 and below it 85787. The old log book has the frame no as R14D 85787, as does the V5C. It's just possible that the frame has a very faint D after the R14, but I couldn't see any hint of it under the paint and the MoT testers over the years haven't been too troubled by it. What you could possibly do is restamp the frame number on the frame gusset cover plate, including the errant D. Not sure how legal that would be though. Gordon.

My slight headache is a 1913 Douglas. Douglas didn't start using frame numbers until 1914, so this one has no frame number at all. The original buff logbook has no engine or frame numbers on it. Clearly someone in the past had to invent a frame number for the authorities but what is on the V5 is vaguely plausible but ficticious. I'm just keeping quiet about it and hoping no-one checks!

I have a 99 of similar vintage to Gordon's. The frame is stamped R14 89116. When I enquired of the club as to its provenance, Dave Catton quoted the frame number as R14D from the club records. I guess that although the frames were not stamped as such, the original log books had the D.

The Norton records at the VMCC include a lot relating to Commandos which are actually only carbon copies of the original vehicle licence applications. The system may have changed between the early 1960s and earlyish 1970s but it would seem that the dealers received a pre-typed Licence Application Form supplied by the factory which they then filled in with the purchaser's name and probably the registration number from a block of numbers pre-issued to them and sent off to the licencing office.

If the Norton despatch books included the 'D' as a marker for 'De Luxe' then it is reasonable to assume that the forms supplied with the bikes would also have included this. Apparently no-one ever checked on the bikes themselves ?

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The Norton records at the VMCC include a lot relating to Commandos which are actually only carbon copies of the original vehicle licence applications. The system may have changed between the early 1960s and earlyish 1970s but it would seem that the dealers received a pre-typed Licence Application Form supplied by the factory which they then filled in with the purchaser's name and probably the registration number from a block of numbers pre-issued to them and sent off to the licencing office.

If the Norton despatch books included the 'D' as a marker for 'De Luxe' then it is reasonable to assume that the forms supplied with the bikes would also have included this. Apparently no-one ever checked on the bikes themselves ?

Hello Yes this is correct I have Factory Records For all 650's and I have 18D for de-lux models 18ss came out in september 1963 before this it was stamp marked on the back of the crankcase left hand side 650SS under this was the Workshop number .

When i took my Ducati for an Mot we could not find a frame number, I don't remember how we got round this but the next year i attached a plastic Dymo strip number to the headstock and everyone is happy!!.

It is possible to buy smart blank aluminium Engine number plates, just stamp in the blanks. I bought one at a tractor autojumble for my David Brown tractor which had a mangled plate. Would it pass VOSA inspection? Probably.

I have seen Factory shots of one, It may have needed a special inlet manifold if the carb (on a DD head) were to align with the apperture on the side panels, unless they made special panels,which is unlikely.I have never seen one for sale S/H and its a cert that if any did escape the factory the 2nd owner would have done an SS conversion, my 88Dl was sold recently looking for all the world a 88SS in black and chrome.If i build a 650 DL it would be as rare as a Unified twin.

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I have seen Factory shots of one, It may have needed a special inlet manifold if the carb (on a DD head) were to align with the apperture on the side panels, unless they made special panels,which is unlikely.I have never seen one for sale S/H and its a cert that if any did escape the factory the 2nd owner would have done an SS conversion, my 88Dl was sold recently looking for all the world a 88SS in black and chrome.If i build a 650 DL it would be as rare as a Unified twin.

Hello I do not think that the 650 de-lux is as Rare as a Unified twin as there was only 6 ever made and that was just the engines there was only one Got to run at MIRA . and it was fitted in The Pluto Frame . But I not seen a Pluto frame yet . they say Its a Oil in the frame job. Built well before the Triumph or BSA ones . These were made in Plumbstead works . There were some 900 . De-lux machines built . In Metalscent,Blue And Dove grey .with coil ignition and single carburettor fitted to the down draft cylinder head the same as the Standard Machine it was in dark polychomatic grey . most of these machines were exported to the EU. and some even went to the USSR. and the IRON Curtain country's, I would be proud to own any one of these machines as I am very fortunate to own a Manxman 650 . there a very fine machine to own . and so nice to ride. on a nice sunny day out, and the special silencers on these machines give you nice music in your ear. yours anna j

If 900 650cc DL machines were built, WHERE ARE THEY?, I have had an interest (bit weird i know) in This model since the mid 1960's and a vast collection of magazines and bike paper and yet i have never seen one featured ,tested or for sale. All turned into Tritons??.

All turned into Tritons??.

SS copies more likely.

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If 900 650cc DL machines were built, WHERE ARE THEY?, I have had an interest (bit weird i know) in This model since the mid 1960's and a vast collection of magazines and bike paper and yet i have never seen one featured ,tested or for sale. All turned into Tritons??.

Hello Well I could Say the same for the Norton Manxman 650 there are only 12 in the uk . and 32 on my world register. there were 668 built.up to late august 1961 .so were are all the de-lux 88 and 99,s as well as the 650,s so were have all the Norton gone! as the Japaneses bought them they love our old Brit bikes over there. and the de-lux tinware round the enclosure there next to none existent.

My father has we think according to records noted in some Norton books the very last 650 DeLuxe model made. It was not a DL when he bought it about 30 Years ago. It has the original engine and reg number but had plain chrome guards on it, all the lugs for the tinware had been removed. He has all the rear panels but it would be a major job to put back to original as the oil tank etc is different. It now has original slimline mudguards and looks like a std 650.

My 99 Deluxe looks (and goes like) a tatty Atlas until you take a closer look. No, I wouldn't ever want to return it to standard. Gordon.

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My father has we think according to records noted in some Norton books the very last 650 DeLuxe model made. It was not a DL when he bought it about 30 Years ago. It has the original engine and reg number but had plain chrome guards on it, all the lugs for the tinware had been removed. He has all the rear panels but it would be a major job to put back to original as the oil tank etc is different. It now has original slimline mudguards and looks like a std 650.

Hello If I could get some original panels from a De-lux machine then I could make a patent from them and then make new panels for the Club members in GelCoat.Reinforced fiber . this is not fiber glass. its being withdrawn not .this new type as come out its less toxic. than the old fiber glass. and stronger too

yours Anna J

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

My father has we think according to records noted in some Norton books the very last 650 DeLuxe model made. It was not a DL when he bought it about 30 Years ago. It has the original engine and reg number but had plain chrome guards on it, all the lugs for the tinware had been removed. He has all the rear panels but it would be a major job to put back to original as the oil tank etc is different. It now has original slimline mudguards and looks like a std 650.

Wow, at last, someone who has one, but if I may, two questions? Firstly have the lugs just been hacked off so that you can see they were definitely there in the first place, (as per my 99D/L), and secondly do the frame number (probably not) and the logbook (probably will)have the D suffix?

The oil tank is different but only in so far as the filler neck is inboard of the frame tube (where the tool tray iscut away)and the three styling ribs are missing, the battery carrier is different altogether and is just a plain tray with a retaining strap ( probably the same as the normal battery box, mine also has the remains of some sort of springy thing attached.

The oil tanks come up regularly on Ebay, the battery carriers, never seen one, probably even rarer than the panels,

Cheers,

Niall

I stripped the bike and rebuilt it years ago, the lugs had been ground off and dressed up, the frame has been repainted so its not possible to see where they were. At the time he didn't have the tinware and I rebuilt the rolling chassis as a std open bike painted black with a silver tank.

I don't think it will ever be a Deluxe again , but thanks for info on the oil tank etc. The tinware came from different sources over the years and I'm not a DL expert so I don't even know if they are correct as we cannot offer them up to the frame.

I'm currently in Germany for a few weeks, I can check the numbers on the frame and logbook when I get back and let you know. I may also be able to post some pictures of the tinware if I can figure out how.

Cheers

Mark

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

My father has we think according to records noted in some Norton books the very last 650 DeLuxe model made. It was not a DL when he bought it about 30 Years ago. It has the original engine and reg number but had plain chrome guards on it, all the lugs for the tinware had been removed. He has all the rear panels but it would be a major job to put back to original as the oil tank etc is different. It now has original slimline mudguards and looks like a std 650.

Hello If I could get some original panels from a De-lux machine then I could make a patent from them and then make new panels for the Club members in GelCoat.Reinforced fiber . this is not fiber glass. its being withdrawn not .this new type as come out its less toxic. than the old fiber glass. and stronger too

yours Anna J

Is there a demand for DL panels, it sounds like most people still prefer to remove them? I will get pictures form you and see what we have.

Mark

hello Why is it that men alway go for the black and sliver paint scheme. its no easer to look after than any other colour . the best colour is white. my van is white. and even when it need a good wash it dose not look that bad. my friend had a black Suzuki Gsxr600 in black and when it came to touch up paint you think that black was black . but no there is thunders of shades of black . and he could not get the right one. so when spraying you motorcycle just remember to get more paint than you need . as you need to touch up later on . yours anna j

Hi .I also have a 99 delux,the number is less than 100 from Gordons,its a 1960 but mine is green and white,the old log book does not give a colour ,but it does have D after both the engine and frame numbers which are matching. Mine is originally from the Leeds area. Perhaps we could start our own Delux club?

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Hi .I also have a 99 delux,the number is less than 100 from Gordons,its a 1960 but mine is green and white,the old log book does not give a colour ,but it does have D after both the engine and frame numbers which are matching. Mine is originally from the Leeds area. Perhaps we could start our own Delux club?

Have you seen that Nice Standard De-lux 99 in dove Grey and Blue all Original Its Up For Sale On Ebay Needing A Good Home. Were Its that bank manager ! Yours Anna J

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hello Why is it that men alway go for the black and sliver paint scheme. its no easer to look after than any other colour . the best colour is white. my van is white. and even when it need a good wash it dose not look that bad. my friend had a black Suzuki Gsxr600 in black and when it came to touch up paint you think that black was black . but no there is thunders of shades of black . and he could not get the right one. so when spraying you motorcycle just remember to get more paint than you need . as you need to touch up later on . yours anna j

There is nothing shabbier than a white motorcycle frame after 10 years of hard use. My red and white 99 looked so vile when I turned up at home on it that mother actually sniffled. Note to readers - I had sold an immaculate, gleaming Crusader Sports to buy the 99. She was a lot happier with it when it emerged in black and silver, as was I. It's not a man/woman thing, it's down to personal sensibilities. Gordon.

Hi Anna, Someone beat you to it, the club had some fibreglass panels at one time. I do have spare RHS panel and tail unit. The really difficult one is the left side which seems to be extinct!!My 88Dl was neatly converted to standard by driving it through a Minivan. I still bear the scars.I am still of the opinion that a 650 DL does not exist anymore.DL oil tanks regularly come up for sale.My 99 DL is fitted with all the touring kit from the period and is far too heavy for me. The first name in its log book is one HL Daniel, which is why I bought it(having memories of Harold giving me fatherly advice back in a time long ago).

Well Niall, I think pig-ugly is you being kind. This 650 was a DL and there was evidence on the frame, how many were made I've no clue but its not going back. The Norton books list it as the last 650 DL but I have never had that checked out by the club. It came as an SS look alike with plain chrome guards. We found some original SL guards and as we had some free black paint the rest was easy! Norton paint colors at the time were interesting...

Ill let you know about the D when I get back, I don't recall one on the frame but its been a few years. I'm cannot even remember what year it is.

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Hi Anna, Someone beat you to it, the club had some fibreglass panels at one time. I do have spare RHS panel and tail unit. The really difficult one is the left side which seems to be extinct!!My 88Dl was neatly converted to standard by driving it through a Minivan. I still bear the scars.I am still of the opinion that a 650 DL does not exist anymore.DL oil tanks regularly come up for sale.My 99 DL is fitted with all the touring kit from the period and is far too heavy for me. The first name in its log book is one HL Daniel, which is why I bought it(having memories of Harold giving me fatherly advice back in a time long ago).

Hello Well there must be one out there somewhere with a sidecar attached to it. its was Up for sale in Real classics 2 years ago . Well some People like the De-lux a some do not. and some like clip-ons and some like high bars. its all down to your personal taste , Just be happy with what you have, yours Anna J

Dl rhs side panel on E-Bay today.

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Fantastic!

The 650 De-Luxe lives! I certainly didn't mean to cast doubt on your bike, and if you say it was definitely a De-Luxe then that's good enough for me. Obviously, some havesurvived but have shed their cocoon of Deluxedness and emerged as beautiful 'ordinary' Dommies.

Hello Niall well I not one For a Ordinary motorcycle , I like something a bit different to all the rest, That why I bough a Norton Manxman 650 . its in a Class on its own .

The 1962 Norton catalogue has a photo of a 650 de luxe in two tone Blue & Cream.

In my garage, somewhere, is an original tank from one of these machines. It is also painted cream to match the other tinware. I bought it many years hoping to use it on an Atlas I was restoring at the time. Unfortunately, the inward facing oil filler makes it almost impossible to use on a standard or SS Norton. You have to remove the seat each time to check the oil level!!!

My NOC registration and dating records indicate at least 10 were built and sold to Joe Public. As has been already mentioned, many de luxe frameshad the panels and lugs removedto help a conversion into SS or Cafe Race form.

Previously wrote:

The 1962 Norton catalogue has a photo of a 650 de luxe in two tone Blue & Cream.

In my garage, somewhere, is an original tank from one of these machines. It is also painted cream to match the other tinware. I bought it many years hoping to use it on an Atlas I was restoring at the time. Unfortunately, the inward facing oil filler makes it almost impossible to use on a standard or SS Norton. You have to remove the seat each time to check the oil level!!!

My NOC registration and dating records indicate at least 10 were built and sold to Joe Public. As has been already mentioned, many de luxe frameshad the panels and lugs removedto help a conversion into SS or Cafe Race form.

Hello Phil Its Dove Grey Not Cream ! you have a rare item hold on to it. someone may be in need of a colour match . Ps I have not found my spare push rod for you yet. yours anna j

My one was red and cream, not dove grey. The inside of the primary chaincase is still the original red. I cut off the bathtub brackets many years ago but still have them in a box for some odd reason. The inside filler oil tank was a right pain to check. I was quite pleased when it split and was replaced with a normal one. I still think the Deluxe was one of Norton's abberations, possibly worse that their attempts to be trendy by sticking high bars on bikes.

They are part of the history and not often seen so that makes them interesting and different, and rare. Ducati made similar mistakes with the GT and GTS versions of the big bevel drive ohc vee twins,once considered ugly and without value they are now worth as much as a Norton. Luckily I have two salted away in a relatives garage,soon to be back on the road. Anna's Green/Dove was one of the optional colours for the early DL's before they standardised,I would be very surprised if the bike did not start life in that colour as its a bit drab considering the other options when refinishing.

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My one was red and cream, not dove grey. The inside of the primary chaincase is still the original red. I cut off the bathtub brackets many years ago but still have them in a box for some odd reason. The inside filler oil tank was a right pain to check. I was quite pleased when it split and was replaced with a normal one. I still think the Deluxe was one of Norton's abberations, possibly worse that their attempts to be trendy by sticking high bars on bikes.

Hello No its Dove Grey it look like cream but called By Norton Dove Grey , your Anna J

Previously wrote:

The 1962 Norton catalogue has a photo of a 650 de luxe in two tone Blue & Cream.

In my garage, somewhere, is an original tank from one of these machines. It is also painted cream to match the other tinware. I bought it many years hoping to use it on an Atlas I was restoring at the time. Unfortunately, the inward facing oil filler makes it almost impossible to use on a standard or SS Norton. You have to remove the seat each time to check the oil level!!!

My NOC registration and dating records indicate at least 10 were built and sold to Joe Public. As has been already mentioned, many de luxe frameshad the panels and lugs removedto help a conversion into SS or Cafe Race form.

hello the 650 de-lux model was a metallic blue . know as metallascent blue&dove grey the grey looks like cream .but Norton called it dove grey

Hi Gordon, "The inside of the chaincase was red", ?? None of the DL bikes had a red chaincase, They were all Dove grey, so someone re-painted that. Most likely the bike started off Blue/Dove.What did the Log book say?.

Well, the green log book says model 99 colour red. Although the original bathtub and mudguards had already gone when I bought it (you don't get much for £30), various bits were definitely red, and not a respray job either. And the frame was definitely cream, not the Dove Grey which I have seen on restored bikes. So I am quite positive that this emerged from Bracebridge Street in red and cream. Oh dear, does this mean it's unique and I have to restore it? Please, no.

For certain there were red and Dove 99's ,Thats how mine was from new, Neville Hinton was insistant that only 88 DL's were that colour,but he did not know about the early optional arrangement.The chaincase could have been a special order or from a wideline all red dommy.The only cream frame i have seen is mine ,where i got the colour wrong!!.

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They are part of the history and not often seen so that makes them interesting and different, and rare. Ducati made similar mistakes with the GT and GTS versions of the big bevel drive ohc vee twins,once considered ugly and without value they are now worth as much as a Norton. Luckily I have two salted away in a relatives garage,soon to be back on the road. Anna's Green/Dove was one of the optional colours for the early DL's before they standardised,I would be very surprised if the bike did not start life in that colour as its a bit drab considering the other options when refinishing.

Hello And were did I mention green and dove grey ??? yours Anna J

I think the D/Ls are like Marmite - I love them both! Saw a couple of beautiful D/Ls at the Bristol Classic Showlast Saturday. Blue/dove grey is my fave colour! Yes - Iam the person who likes them! Unfortunately I only have a Navigator D/L, but when it grows up it wants to be a Dommie DeLuxe!

Loinel, your secrets are out! A fine display of courage if I may say so. I quite like marmite though.

The first bike I fell in love with as a schoolboy was the fully-faired Ariel Leader with panniers and full kit. It was a turquoise and cream/grey one and I understand it was the reason Norton brought out the D/L bikes as competition. In theory a 350 (Navi) or 500cc 4-stroke should wipe the floor with a 250cc 2-stroke!

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The first bike I fell in love with as a schoolboy was the fully-faired Ariel Leader with panniers and full kit. It was a turquoise and cream/grey one and I understand it was the reason Norton brought out the D/L bikes as competition. In theory a 350 (Navi) or 500cc 4-stroke should wipe the floor with a 250cc 2-stroke!

Hello yes I had a Ariel leader in turquoise pink and dove grey . they were good as I could put my nice high heel shoes and hand bag in the dummy tank well I was younger back then .Yours Anna J

Sorry for the delay, I have checked the logbook and frame, neither have a D on them. The date of reg is march 63 so not sure if that helps.