Commando production - bikes first then numbers and tank?

As I understand it from a couple of specialist Norton books the engine numbers were stamped once the engine was built and before it was mounted in the bike. Completed engines were storedsomewhere at the factory ready for an assembly line worker to collect the next one for mounting in the next bike moving down the line.

They were supposed to take each engine innumber sequence butsometimes this didn't happen andan-out-of sequence engine would sometimes be selected which explained numerous anomalies with model / production date investigations against official factory records.

I've got an 850 Mk1A whichis 140 engine numbers before the official first Mk 1A production bike off the line. Frame headstock plateis stamped with correct 9/73 month/year for the first Mk 1A.

If you think of the engines being produced in batches and then stored in the same way that tins are stocked on supermarket shelves you will see how the numbering system can go wrong. Products at the back of the shelf can sit there unused, for ages, while any spaces in front are often replensished with new stock.

If you are building motorcycles and are on a production number bonus, then you are not going to waste time shifting 50Kg engines around to find the earliest assembled motor. You just grab the nearest....which is probably the newest.

This may not be the exact reason for the out of sequence 850 mystery but would follow a similar story as befell the first Model 7, later 650 Manxman and to some extent the mark 1 Commando bikes. With regard to these Nortons, complete machines were stockpiled while engine problems were sorted. The Model 7 and Manxman bikes had 'shop' numbers stamped on their crankcases. Resulting in many examples of the first production run of machines ending up with later and out of sequence engine numbers stamped on their crankcases.

It is fairly clear from the evidence, of these Nortons, that the engine numbers were stamped last before machines were cleared for sale.

Not Norton, but this month's 'Real Classic' has a letter from a chap who worked at BSA during 1965 / 66. His job was to stamp the frame numbers on the A, B and C model line and also to fit coils and battery carrier....This was all carried out walking along beside a moving line !

It's not surprising if errors and anomalies occurred. Stamping the frames last would have been pretty well the only way to arrive at 'matching' numbers in those days...nowadays, it can all be done by computers selecting the parts for each build.

The logical thing on Commandos which apart from late Mk3 850s, didn't have 'matching' stamped on the frame itself would have been to stamp engine and red frame tag, tie them together and let them be fitted to the same machine, with only the build date still to be applied. This might explain why the frame / engine numbers on the plates are quite neat but the dates rather roughly stamped.

About 14 years ago I bought a re-imported Roadster (From the US) It had matching engine/frame numbers (141***) and the red frame number plate was date stamped 1970. The plate was obviously originalbut had lost a lot of the redfinish in the middle where the wiring harness had been rubbing on it, however the numbers were still clearly stamped.I applied for the obligatoryNOC dating letter which duly arrived but I was surprised to see it stated that the factory records showedthe biketo be of 1971 manufacture and that it was first registered in the UK by a dealerin Cambridge, then exported shortly afterwards. I also had a photocopy of the last US 'Title' document (North Carolina) which showed the year of manufacture as 1970. Obviously I had to take it to my local DVLA office for inspection, along with the relevent paperwork,so I could obtain a registration number. The chap thereOK'd it but obviously ignored the NOC dating letterbecauseheissued it with a 1970 registration numberand a document stating it was declared to have been manufactured in 1970 ! - Had the plate been wrongly stamped at the factory? I didn't know and didn't really care, I just wanted an Age RelatedUK registrationNo. and I wasn't bothered if it was '70 or '71 but it did seem a bit odd that he should ignore the NOC dating info which of course is taken straight from the factory records ! (He also mucked up the frame number on the V5 by using both the original Norton number AND the North Carolina VIN number stamped next to the plate !..)

In the automotive industry there are model years and they do not match calender years exactly. In the UK the 71 model year started just after the summer shutdown eg Aug/Sept 1970 and ran until Aug/Sept 1971. So its perfectly possible to have a bike manufactured late 70 which is a 71 model year.

My 1959 made 99 is registered as a 1960,, I understand that the cut off date for the MOT test requirement is 1960 manufacture , Has anyone had any luck in getting the Authorities to recognise their own legislation?.It would be nice to have one less MOT to do. I must have had over 100 mot's without a failure , its a waste of time and money.

Get a Dating cert from the NOC, and use it to ask for the V5 to be changed adding in the manufacture/despatch date as pre Jan 1st 1960. My 74 Commando first registered in May 74 but manufactured Nov 73 is now a Historic Vehicle with free road tax using the same procedure.

Previously john_holmes wrote:

In the automotive industry there are model years and they do not match calender years exactly. In the UK the 71 model year started just after the summer shutdown eg Aug/Sept 1970 and ran until Aug/Sept 1971. So its perfectly possible to have a bike manufactured late 70 which is a 71 model year.

My Commando is exactly as above...........being manufactured on 31st December 1971 but not registered for the road until 2 weeks later. So I have a 72 K plate but everything about the bike is from a 71 model.

But Phil, surely the 'K' suffix ran August 1971 - July 1972 ? My old 750 (200500) must have been among the earliest built with the breather at the back but wasn't registered until September '72 so it gained an 'L suffix. At least it was still allowed a black & silver plate though. I'd have expected a December 1971 bike to have been 1972 spec...

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

My 1959 made 99 is registered as a 1960,, I understand that the cut off date for the MOT test requirement is 1960 manufacture , Has anyone had any luck in getting the Authorities to recognise their own legislation?.It would be nice to have one less MOT to do. I must have had over 100 mot's without a failure , its a waste of time and money.

Not with a Norton, but I have had it with a BMW, a 1959 R69 built 19/12/59, but not registered until 1962, when presented with a dating letter from BMW (EUR35 to you, Mein Herr) they altered my V5 without any problem, I have always found with DVLA that anytime there is correct paperwork, they are mustard but they don't like rusty bits of metal.

Richard is correct, a K suffix reg was from 1st August 1971 to 31 July 1972. I once bought a new N reg on 1st August 1974. Happy Days.

I wonder if there are any plans to roll on the 1960 MOT exemption.

Mind you, there was a rolling historic 25 years but wee Gordon Brown put a stop to that. Wonder if the new rolling 40 years can be stopped? Anything in the manifestoes? My P regMk3850 still needs taxing!!!!!!!

Richard is correct, a K suffix reg was from 1st August 1971 to 31 July 1972. I once bought a new N reg on 1st August 1974. Happy Days.

I wonder if there are any plans to roll on the 1960 MOT exemption.

Mind you, there was a rolling historic 25 years but wee Gordon Brown put a stop to that. Wonder if the new rolling 40 years can be stopped? Anything in the manifestoes? My P regMk3850 still needs taxing!!!!!!!

Neil-re plans to roll on 1960 MOT exemption if you go to www.dft.gov.uk/classic-mot/ you can have your say on this subject but be quick it expires on the 24th!

Previously richard_payne wrote:

But Phil, surely the 'K' suffix ran August 1971 - July 1972 ? My old 750 (200500) must have been among the earliest built with the breather at the back but wasn't registered until September '72 so it gained an 'L suffix. At least it was still allowed a black & silver plate though. I'd have expected a December 1971 bike to have been 1972 spec...

You are quite correct about the plate. K reg started in the August of 1971. The point that I was trying to make (very badly due to failing English at O'level) was that the bike was 72 registered but is very much a 71 model with all the 71 trimmings. Was this possibly due to it being a 'New Year's eve' rush job or had the factory run out of the correct bits?

I see what you're saying, Phil. In theory, all the bikes built after August / September 1971 should have had rear breathers but somehow they dispatched a camshaft breather engine as late as December.

My red plate was undated which might also suggest that things were a bit chaotic.