Brexit, Ethanol

Somehow I think that is likely to be a little way down the agenda!

With oil being priced in dollars, I suspect that there will soon be questions on how to get Nortons to run on producer gas. It'll probably mean a trailer...

Well 75% of our MP's supported remain, only the voters are for Brexit, and all but 6 MP's voted for the Climate Change act. So way down the list and we have enough MP's scared of the Green vote to carry on making it mandatory.

The banning of Round up weedkiller is next, just bought a lifetimes supply.

shame this bike never caught on.

http://www.dieselbike.net/norton/norton.htm

As a matter of interest, I would like to know how many rode their Nortons to Rimini, and, how many suffered the effects of using fuel, containing ethanol, in Europe. I suspect the answer to the latter to be zero.

Thanks for the diesel info Barry, very interesting to re-visit. I remember Enfield using a Robin stationery motor about 20 years ago. Never really caught on.

As for the Ethanol situation: Until a couple of months ago, as a part of the EU Renewable Energy Directive (RED) E10 or 10% Ethanol by 2020 was going to be enforced in all pump fuel in member states. However, that has been scaled down to 5% enforced by 2020 as there was not enough support for E10 and it was not feasible to enforce. (Litigation comes to mind whereas in the UK, when Ethanol was introduced by stealth the law stated that no warning up to 5% was required and a disclaimer was in place. Since then on most pumps your warning is EN228)

So, things will continue as they are post 2020. Why? Because of Ed Miliband's 2008 Climate Change Act, the most expensive Act in British Parliamentary history. This Act only voted against by 5 Conservative MP's and out of all the people that voted on 28th October 2008, (While it was snowing in London) only Peter Lilley read the impact statement setting out that the costs were many times greater than the benefits. One reason why electricity costs have risen 133% since then with no chance of coming down due to the guaranteed subsidies. Ethanol is a part of the renewable energy target and in particular, RFFTO (Renewable fuels for transport obligation)

It will be up to the new government to rescind the expensive and damaging Ed Miliband 2008 Act and then high consumption industry can survive, fuel poverty reduced and Ethanol problems and threats with petrol reduced with a real choice of fuel quality across the country. Many MP's including some from Labour are now asking for the 2008 Act to be rescinded!

As we know, ESSO supreme Synergy 97 RON is E0 in most of the UK (Except Green Scotland, Teeside and SW) I had to attend my Uncles funeral in Suffolk last week. I saw a BP Ultimate tanker and so I stopped and asked the driver (In Suffolk) what was in his Ultimate and he said NO Ethanol. That was encouraging and perhaps BP customer services are frightened of the Green lobby, remember, Greenslease closed down a BP station a few years ago in London!

Brexit can only help free us from the Green blob costing us all a fortune to combat a problem the world does not have. You could call me a flat earther but I have been interested in astronomy since I was at school and I have a huge telescope!

John, I know riders that attended Rimini and many went on foreign bikes such as BMW's and many were paying a price for anti ethanol stabalizer, taking no chances. Yes we know you can buy Ethanol proof tank sealant, Ethanol proof fuel hose and Ethanol proof carb parts but what a racket and what a cost, all in order to combat a solvent not required. Saving the planet? I very much doubt it but meeting a government target? Absolutely!

Neil, how high is your horse?!

In answer to johns question, I rode my '51 ES2 2650 miles to Rimini and back and ran it on whatever I could get with no additives. Some stations only had 1 pump and must have done 100's of miles on E10. I had no problems at all, unless you can find some way of blaming ethanol for my lights packing up on the way back?

Andy

Dan, leave the horses for the Ariel OC.

Andy, you never said if you had ethanol proofed your bike? That would make a massive difference and hopefully get us back onto the technical basis relating to this thread.

However, it is not always possible to separate political policy from the consequences and hence some explanation is required as to how we arrived here.

The definition of a millisecond used to be the amount of time between the traffic light in front of you turning green and the German behind you blasting his horn. It's now how long between ethanol coming up in a thread, and Neil popping up with his 6 penneth.

Apologies to any Germans reading, just a little lighthearted banter.

Don't forget my lights packing up Chris!

The bike has had no special work done to it to 'Ethanol proof' it.

I'm concerned that some of the components of modern fuel have contributed to my problems with grease-lubricated valve guides. I'm using Miller's VSP now.

I had the Commando carbs apart today as it was a bit lumpy and there was corrosion on the needle jets which wasn't previously a problem. It's not a disaster but the water residues here in Belgium cannot be a good thing.

No fuel supplier here will even enter into correspondence about what's in it. I suspect some tankers get ten barrels and some get none. The man from the ministry gets a free lunch (It's the Belgian way) and everybody's happy except those of us who work on our own vehicles.

So very sad we are not 100% united to have a choice of fuel quality.

I recently called into my local Esso station and asked the attendant whether all the fuel contained ethanol (how optomistic is that!!) . The Asian gent was interested in my question (never been asked that) and asked why it was important. He produced a file which contained a vast amount of information on all the ingredients which the fuels contained.He passed me the file which appeared to be a health and safety tome detailing all the LIKELY chemicals that could be found in the stations products . The reading was pretty horrific with just about everything being nasty for organic life, and no way of telling which grade contained what. I bought a gallon of pure poison for the Rudge and went away happy.

Robert, don't forget that E0 only applies to around 80% of Super unleaded supreme. (Outside of the Ethanol areas mentioned several times previously)

All 95 RON petrol is E5, Murco was the last company to add the solvent at the distribution point but their refinery has long since closed.

PS: I use this E0 in my car and get around 6 mpg more, so well worth the effort!

I have had problems with my Commando fuel taps becoming blocked as the washers were distorted/swollen, not allowing fuel through. Causing a breakdown.

2 of my close family members are in the fuel/oil business and one is at the top of a fuel trade association, the other a Chemical engineer with regular meetings with EU and Suppliers. I have been advised only to use the super unleaded in my old bike, and that things will soon be changing, not for the better for our old bikes. Regardless of in the Eu or not, our fuel will be essentially the same as Eu I imagine in the future.

Michael. Just any super unleaded will not do. As Neil previously pointed out, we can only be sure that Esso Supreme 97 does not contain ethanol, in most of the country at least - see his post - and possibly BP Ultimate, but that is now less sure. I added just 3 litres of Tesco Momentum 99 super unleaded into my Wideline tank some while ago, and in the morning all the paint had stripped off the inside of the filler. I peeled it off in one sheet. It had been expensively sprayed using petrol resistant paint and lacquer, but that is not ethanol resistant. Just the fumes stripped it. I have since read in another forum that Tesco achieve their 99 ron rating by adding 10% ethanol..... this could explain why Esso s/u is only 97 ron, sans ethanol.

I had a similar problem with a fuel tap rubber expanding and blocking the fuel supply. The latest versions of the tap appear to now have ethanol-resistant seals.

It is a minefield.....

Hello Michael / Ian, Two reasons why we will struggle with the ethanol problem and three if you include the disunity of 'I'm all right.' (At the moment)

1) We are going to be stuck with EU rules for a year or two yet.

2) We will still be legislated by the Ed Miliband 2008 Climate Change Act, although unlike the EU who want Ethanol in all pump petrol by 2020, the Miliband Act does allow for some E0 and even some leaded, although breaking bulk hardly makes it Bayford Thrust's worth while.

All we can hope for is that someone less likely to be hugging Huskies takes over as PM!

Sorry Webmaster but how do you take the politics out of the technical point of Ethanol? Keeping concerned members in the dark is not acceptable. Hence the debate.

For what it's worth we run Tesco Momentum in all our bikes/cars and have yet to experience any issues, these include...

'55 Norton 19R, '37 Inter, Sunbeam S8, Triumph T90, AJS 18/18CS, Tiger Cub, GP150 Lambretta, Bantam D5/7/14, Greeves Scrambler, MGA, MGB, MG TD, NG, Riley RMD, RMA, RME

All that's had to be done is replace the soft hose.

Yet again I`m forced to admit my lack of technical knowledge when it comes to engines....What have modern engines got that my ES2 hasnt that allows them to run on lower grade unleaded fuel. My ES2 gets all hotnbothered if it doesnt get the expensive stuff (but strangely the 19S seems to run well on anything)

What have modern engines got that my ES2 hasnt that allows them to run on lower grade unleaded fuel.

Fuel injection which relies on high pressure pump and injectors that atomise the fuel so it gets away with non volatile old fuel, and ECU that controls the ignition advance with anti knock detectors, fuel mapping based on input from various sensors.The ECU adjusts all of this on the fly using its general mapping but samples the current conditions and adjusts the map accordingly, so about 5 mins after filling up with low octane fuel the ECU has learnt to apply less advance, anti knocking detectors cover the 5 mins and keep the engine safe, one knock and the advance is pulled back and then slowly eased forward. Components designed to cope with E10 and suppliers under pressure to come up with solutions.

In short 'A lot'

Previously paul_kidson wrote:

For what it's worth we run Tesco Momentum in all our bikes/cars and have yet to experience any issues,

All that's had to be done is replace the soft hose.

Paul. I used Tesco Momentum in my 2-stroke racer, because it had the highest octane of the standard pump fuels, and worked very well, the bike being suitably ethanol-protected of course. Also, fresh fuel only went in on practice and race day, was all used, and tank emptied at the end of the meeting. That is why after one race meeting I had a little left, which I put in my Norton tank, for it to strip the paint off overnight.

With your stable; and to be fair, there are other components which need changing to make them ethanol proof rather than just the hoses; my concern would be fuel sitting in the tanks for weeks at a time. With that number of vehicles you can't use them all daily or even weekly, so you either run them dry or drain them every time you park them up. If not, one day you will find petrol leaking out of a corroded fuel tank onto the garage floor. Also, your Greeves must be a pre-fibreglass tank model, because the tank would have dissolved within days of putting the stuff in there.

As you say, you have yet to experience any problems....

Oh, and don't spill any on your paint!

Let's not be in denial; this stuff is a problem.

Previously John Shorter wrote:

As a matter of interest, I would like to know how many rode their Nortons to Rimini, and, how many suffered the effects of using fuel, containing ethanol, in Europe. I suspect the answer to the latter to be zero.

You are right John a big fat zero

You are right Ian, this stuff is a problem and the proactive shouldn't wait until they have a problem, since the cat is out of the bag. Ethanol was introduced by stealth in 2006 and that is when my Petseal disolved in two tanks and the stainless braded hose on my commando started spraying fuel all over the place. Thankfully I managed to turn the tap off before the whole lot caught fire.

I bought my Petseal from Autocycle Engineering and the boss there didn't know why my Petseal had come away in 2006, he sold me some more, so I had double to get out of my Model 50's tank before I found the problem! I have said my piece to the FBHVC for not warning us, someone could have been killed! I know that Wyldes of Leeds with their excellent flowliner (Now Ethanol proof) had the same fate, nobody bothered to tell them to change the formula either!!! Just shows you your Green leaning governments just don't care. Too busy hugging Huskies no doubt, though this started under Blair and Brown in the UK.

Anyone who wants to use this solvent in their tank can. The issue is that there should be a choice. What happened to choice? Remember Hillary Benn, forcing dim light bulbs upon us without choice. This is about freedom of choice! E0, use it or lose it...

In the 60s, before the EU, Britain (soon to be just England and Wales) used to be an exporting nation. BSA, Triumph and Norton used to sell to the USA in preference to the home market. They also used to design bikes the Americans would like.

It will be the same after brexit. They will design petrol to please the foreign buyers rather than the home market. If the foreign buyers have to have ethanol laced petrol, then that is what British refiners will make.

Jonathan, the refiners don't make ethanol laced petrol, it is added from a sealed ethanol tanker at the distribution point, the last thing before the tanker goes on its way to the designated service station.

The only reason it is added is to meet government renewable targets, set by both the EU and Ed Miliband's 2008 Climate Act....

I'm guessing that it is also a stealth move to remove some vehicles from the road but that is my hunch I can't prove. However, it was suggested some years back at the DoT that there would be no carburrated engines in use by 2018! I wonder if anyone told Amal? Remember, ethanol was introduced by stealth.

The other thing you are forgetting, Jonathan, is that there already is a market for E0 petrol and E0 is widely available in the US of A. In fact in some States ethanol is banned!

Previously Neil Wyatt

The other thing you are forgetting, Jonathan, is that there already is a market for E0 petrol and E0 is widely available in the US of A. In fact in some States ethanol is banned!

Speaking from California, ethanol is at every station. Race gas can be purchased at specialty vendors, but after that tank is expended you have to refill with what the stations have. Effects, my original fiberglass tank is hanging on the wall with blisters in the gel coat and the original Amal floats are ruined. I use Tygon for fuel line as the clear original stuff lasts one a year.