Bio-ethanol the Classic killer

Hello all

what is the best product to protect my pride and joy against bio-ethanol and is it easy to apply in the tank. Any tips please.

I have heard pet seal is good but i just want to make sure before i apply.

regards

Alex

Try a product FROST, I had a very bad trouble with pet seal, but to be fair I think it is the ethanol that is the problem.

I dont know how FROST will be once the ethanol level is raised.

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Try a product FROST, I had a very bad trouble with pet seal, but to be fair I think it is the ethanol that is the problem.

I dont know how FROST will be once the ethanol level is raised.

hello rob yes Frost Is one of the Best tank sealant But theres also Casswell Engineering as some good tank sealant We will All have Sort out our fuel Tanks Because this Bio-ethnol Is Corrosive and we will all have to check out fuel tanks on a regular bases , The FBHVC Web Site and see the LisT On Bio-Ethnol ? Yours Anna J dixon

I have just ordered a kit from Tank care products (07834415921) that hopefully will remove my old sealant (now in a mess), prepare and re-line the tank with an ethanol proof sealer. Even if this all goes to plan, what can be done about the corrosion problem? Does anyone know the name of any fuel additive that will prevent this effect? Yours, Rob Scott.

As I starteda thread ref this subjectI thought I'd detail 'progress' so far. I have a Norton Commando Mk2A Interstate (5 gallon steel tank) and also a BSA Rocket 3 Mk2 (also a 5 gallon steel tank). Both tanks have been previously treated with Petseal tank liner which was fine until about 6 months ago when ethanol in the fuel started to cause the Petseal to disintegrate. I purchased two sets of Petseal Remover from Tank Care Products (one for each tank). The remover comes in a sealed can and the instructions warn to "Wear Gloves, eye protection and do not breath fumes or allow the fluid to touch skin" (heaven knows what it is !!) - the entire contents of a can is pured into the empty and dry tank (remove petrol taps and seal the holes with suitable 'bungs'), the tank is sealed and left (they state for twelve hours but I felt mine for 48 hours) the tank filler is then opened and left for a few days for the contents to evaporate. At the end of this process the Petseal had turned into loose 'flakes'. The instructions state that it is merely necessary to tip the flakes out (it warns that the flakes will still be 'nasty' if touched !!) - I found that it was still necessary to put some clean gravel into the tank and give it a good shake to loosen all of the flakes. After this the tank was cleaned thoroughly with soda crystals and allowed to dry for a few days - result - a clean tank. I had also purchased two sets of Tapol Tank Sealer from Caswell Europe (circa £34.00 per 'set') - they state that one set is sufficient for a 5 gallon tank. The kit consists of a half-full can of sealer and a smaller can of 'hardener'. The hardener is poured into the larger can of sealer and mixed - the resulting mix is fairly 'watery' and is poured into the tank - the tanks is sealed and 'swirled' and tipped to ensure a coating on the entire inside of the tank. The instructions state to then remove the seal in the lower tank orifice (i.e. where the fuel tap is normally fitted) and drain the surplus Tapox mix for use as a second coating twelve hours later. When I removed my tank seal nothing came out ! - it appears that the quantity of Tapox is only just enough for one coat on an Interstate tank. The tank was left with the filler cap open for a few days (my garage is pretty cold this time of year therefore the curing took quite a few days - my better half refused to allow the tank in the house due to the pungent smell !!). The resulting coating looks pretty good (matt brick red colour). Only time will tell how well the coating lasts - I'll keep you posted.

Conclusions:-

1) So far so good

2) The Petseal Remover is NOT for use in fibreglass tanks - it's weird stuff but it does what it says on the tin.

3) Tapox seems to work but it's unlikely you'll get two coats out on one can - Roadster and other smaller tanks (circa 3 gallons) might be OK.

Cheers,

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Hello To All NOCers The Big Classic Bike Killer Bio-ethanol, It does not like our motorcycles, it eats your petrol tank sealant in the tank and is will cause corrosion in the tank and to the carburettor and possibly the valves and seats. The proportion of ethanol is increasing to 10% in your petrol in the near future, that's twice the amount thats in it now? There is some additives that stop corrosion in the tank and engine parts, but its just petrol that will be affected but Diesel Too ?so its not good news as we will have too pay more forour pleasure ? I think its the EU directive trying too get vintage and classic Machines off the road ? Yours Anna J Dixon Secretary East Yorkshire

hello to all NOCers Tapox Tank Sealer 415g will only do a 2.1/2gallon tank not a 3 gallon tank as Caswell Europe says

they do a tank seater for Harley Davidson and it will do two 3 gallon tanks info on www.caswelleurope.co.uk phone number 01420 477 987 ,

we will all HAVE TO RELINE YOU TANKS WITH NEW TANK SEALER As Bio-Ethonl Is Corrosive and It does NOT Like Bass Or Copper And Some Alloys and eats rubber seal Andeats lead solder on your floats ,See www.FBHVC.co.uk for more info ,And you may find jelley balls in you tank this gets into your fillter mesh and can STOP your Engine ,This is the corse of vaper locks in the carbs when the engine is Hot ? Amal Do a re-placement Kit ,See www.Amal.co.uk And Bio-Ethonl Can corse premature valve& guide ware ,This Is Worrying ? YOU Have All Been Warn-ed Yours Anna J Dixon

Previously wrote:

Hello To All NOCers The Big Classic Bike Killer Bio-ethanol, It does not like our motorcycles, it eats your petrol tank sealant in the tank and is will cause corrosion in the tank and to the carburettor and possibly the valves and seats. The proportion of ethanol is increasing to 10% in your petrol in the near future, that's twice the amount thats in it now? There is some additives that stop corrosion in the tank and engine parts, but its just petrol that will be affected but Diesel Too ?so its not good news as we will have too pay more forour pleasure ? I think its the EU directive trying too get vintage and classic Machines off the road ? Yours Anna J Dixon Secretary East Yorkshire

Sorry to send a blank message! This system has got me really confused.

Re. tank linings. After finding myself at the centre of a storm when I wrote 2 articles confessing to "bodging", the following is not a recommendation. Just my experience so far - and there may be much better methods.

I used Petseal in 1999. I have had a bit to do with polymers, but am no expert. The stuff smelt like Polyester resin. I knew that polyester catalysts/hardeners are normally organic peroxides. These react with metals (like tanks), and are thus neutralised. (Hence the instruction not to stir your plastic padding with a metal instrument). However I thought the Petseal people must know better, so I used it. It would not set - it took days in the airing cupboard to harden. How "cured"/"cross-linked" it was I do not know, but poorly cured resins tend to be soluble. Within a year the damned stuff was coming off. Major battle to get all the debris out of the tank.

I thought epoxies a better idea (no problem reactions with metals), and, being a boaty person, I got some "West" epoxy impregnating resin from a yacht chandler and used that. I have read in the correspondence of troubles with epoxies in tanks. All I can say that, so far, mine if fine. I must have done about 60,000 miles since then, and that included about 5000 miles in Canada, in 2006, at which time I do believe the Canadians were already putting corn cobs in the fuel (also a lot of trouble getting the bike to run well on the stuff, but that is another story).

With increasing levels of alcohol in our fuels, I may yet have trouble, but I feel pretty hopeful I will not. If anyone wants to risk using "West" epoxy, some points:

the exact proportions should be mixed so there is no left over unreacted monomer in the mix (soluble).

correct cure temperatures

clean metal (obviously)

to get the viscocity down, a LITTLE warming is OK but will accelerate the reaction/cure. Standing puddles of expoxy in the tank will accelerate it more ("Exotherms"). I warmed a bit, sloshed round fast, turned the tank upside down where the stuff collected around the spigot thing where the tank cap fits, and sponged this excess out fast. Very thick layers of any hard resin inside are a bad thing, as the stuff expands and contracts at a different rate to the steel tank - and with hot sun - or extreme cold, thick layers of resin can crack away.

Not a recommenndation - since I have yet so see how my epoxy holds out in times of increasing alcohol, but, well - - --- its up to you.

But I have wondered, reading all the correspondence, whether a lot of the reported trouble arises from improperly cured resins. I do know that the conventional stripper that we used to use at work for epoxies was strong formic acid. Evil stuff. Surprising if you can remove the epoxy with something as humble as alcochol.

Is there anyone out therewith more knowledge of polymers who can shed more light on this?

(P.S> I used the same stuff on the oil tank)

Hello All,

if we take a look at our machine use hours, time stored and fuel system components, we are more akin to small boat owners. Then we look at a market place with a current high ethanol content, USA. The solution they came up with is an additive to stop the ethanol separating and attracting moisture. The best additive is the Marine formula, not here yet, but on the way.

http://www.ready2race.co.uk/shop/shop.php?action=full&id=1477

I will start a set of comparison tests when home. Glass tank, steel tank, treated fuel, untreated fuel, with various bits of pipe and gasket material thrown in.

Cheers

Rob

The best policy is to use ethanol free petrol, such as BP Ultimate at present if not in the South West.Just think about it for a moment; you are paying a fortune in sealant, additives, new carb parts and pipes etc just to help HM Government meet their renewable target, and for what? We didn't as for this contamination in the first place.

The biggest problem is that until ethanol content exceeds 7% the government say they don't need to warn you. This stuff was introduced by stealth. I found out in 2007 when my petseal melted in my Model 50 tank and my Commando fuel hoses became like a spray gun!

The FBHVC are as much use as a chocolate tea pot, after all of the protests from veteran, vintage and classic owners they are supporting this Greenest government ever in saying that E5or EN228 should be the standard fall back fuel if and when E10 comes in. They are not supporting E0. The whole thing is a total dogs dinner and you are paying for it. I suggest you write to your MP and Transport Minister (LibDem) Norman Baker and demand E0. Ethanol is only added from a tanker at the refinery at the last moment because of its hygroscopic nature, so supplying E0 is not a problem, it is about government targets and the global warming fruitcakes!

The last tank I sealed I used stuff called 'Slosh'. It requires no mixing and seems to work well. Time will tell but I understand that all our old Norton's will be off the road after 2020 as it stands as they won't make the CO2 regulations. This is what we are being signed up to!

I think we have been through all this before.

Previously Gordon Johnston wrote:

I think we have been through all this before.

Sure have Gordon. In the 50's Discol had 10% ethanol, and did no harm at all to fuel taps, carburettors, or anythink else, mind you, no one bothered with tank sealant in those days. Ethanol is widely used in S. America, and I have not heard of their transport sytstem grinding to a halt!

p.s.Spell checker uses American English, they spell carburettor with onl one t.

The problem we all face with fuel, oil, additives etc etc is we can't individually do 'double blind' trials. So if something goes wrong we look for what has changed and then blame that...

Water injection often appears - small amounts alter burn characteristics maybe for the better - but of course we don't want to move our car/bike/ etc a few yards (e.g. across the road to a different parking place) and leave water inside our engines to rust the rings...so maybe someone will get more mpg but his engine won't last.

So things that might be good for performance in the short term might not assist the life expectancy etc. etc.

I seldom use the top grade UK fuel because when it evaporates it leaves more deposits than the standard stuff - but I think I'm beginning to see similar deposits from the lower grade. So I try to turn off the fuel early to leave as little as possible static in the float chamber. Or drain the float chamber down from concentrics.

But I don't believe in oil company conspiracies. If there was a magic bullet there would be LOTS of money to be made...

In the early days the fuel was a cleanly evaporating solvent. We still use it for some early veteran bikes (surface carburettors need it). But it costs about £5. per litre and there isn't enough of it for all the vehicles in the world - so modern fuels are complicated blends of all sorts of things. But modern engines go on and on and on...and don't need decoking every 3000 miles ... so the oil companies must be doing something right.

Just my tuppence worth - why are so many people using tank sealers anyway? If it doesn't leak you don't need it, and if it does, weld or solder the holes !

And yes, unlike the old advice of leaving a little used machine with a full tank, do the opposite, and make sure float bowls are empty.

As for fibre glass tanks, they were banned for road use years ago in this country, but are perfectly legal now. I know of off road guys who use them, they only fill the tanks whilst the bikes are in use, and drain them immediately afterwards. I am told the ethanol starts to soften the inside whilst the fuel is in them, but after draining and being allowed to evaporate with the cap off, the fibre glass re-hardens.

Amal have been introducing the new ethanol resistant stay up floats for concentrics and their website say they are constantly improving their products with the ethanol content in mind.

I have a pre-war Triumph that has a tank liner, (by a previous owner, I don't use them myself), it's been falling apart for the last five years, but the tank doesn't leak yet ! I'll rebuild the tank when it gets too bad

Yes ethanol does CAUSE problems, but they are not insurmountable, if anything causes the death of the vintage/veteran/classic vehicle movement, it wont be fuel that does it.

Sensible response, Tony. What I can't understand is why you have ethanol in petrol in the UK at all. In America, the reason is political, the politicians want to give money to the Agribusiness, so they subsidise the production of ethanol and mandate that it is added to gasoline. I wonder who is benefiting financially from ethanol in fuel in the U.K.?

Colin, it is political here too. Our Greenest government ever is committed to Ed Miliband's 2008 Climate Act. This means that they have renewable targets to meet by 2020. There is so much objection to expensive, unsightly and inefficient wind turbines that they have to have to turn elsewhere for renewable energy, especially as the solar industry is all but dead. Therefore,increasing the content of bio fuel help meet that useless target is what they do. Let's face it, most motorists don't know what Ethanol is. Neither did I untill 2007 when two Norton tanks wre full of soft Petseal. Then the fuel hoses became religious, I mean Holy ! (Just think of all that biomass shipped to Drax from all over the world! Yes that counts towards the target too....)

The FBHVC were supposed to be fighting our corner, so we could at least have a national regular supply of E0. (Ethanol free petrol) Instead they are found to be in bed with the government, supporting E5 (5%) and simply promoting chemicals to counter the Ethanol we don't want in the first place. More expense.

I was in Daytona last March and in a few other States too. What I found was that the lower grades had a warning sticker of 10% Ethanol. I was told that much of the high grade (93 RON) Yes I know UKstandard grade is 95 was ethanol free. The forecourt staff appear more knowledgable in the US with regard to Ethanol than the UK. 'What's Ethanol.'? A result of stealth again no doubt.

It is up to you riders to continue to lobby your MP or Congressman to ensure that not all petrol is contaminated with Ethanol. Earlier this Month I stood on a Glacier, six metresdeeper than it was a year ago. In Argentina, Chile, Paraguay and even Brazil, people have been dying from recordcold in the last week. We are supposed to be having catastrophic global warming and putting Ethanol in our petrol is supposed to be one of the measures that will save the world, Jusy ask Al Gore (And follow his money) Happy riding.

Biofuel with ethanol separates out after a few weeks, and as alcohol is hygroscopic, ie: it absorbs water from the atmosphere and starts steel tank corrosion, so steel and alloy tanks need protection.. Unfortunately alcohol attacks the old Petseal type tank sealants. It also slowly degrades West type epoxies, so you need the nitrile type. The Caswell system uses an expensive totally resistant epoxy, but the tank must be immaculately clean first or it won't adhere properly, a total nightmare! The Caswell Europe website has all the detail you need. GRP "fibreglass" tanks can also be "Caswelled" which is good as some trials bikes had them from new. One Caswell pack only just does a Norton Dommie tank if you follow the instructions to the letter.

The alloy of your carb will corrode if fuel is left in, as alcohol is electrolytic, as is the water it absorbs, and there are dissimilar metals in the float chamber, so run the carb dry if the bike is to be left for more than two weeks. Burlen fuel systems do an upgrade kit with a "Stayup" float that is alcohol-proof."Yamalube" from boat shops is an additive to reduce fuel separation, and seems to work fuel tanks. In winter drain your bike's tank and leave the filler cap off. Petrol pipes all need to be changed to ethanol-proof. This is vital if you want to avoid fire! All this to support inexcusable American subsidies to the US agribusiness and destroy the rainforests.We're stuck with it, I'm afraid, so I did the Caswell trick on the advice of a bike tank restorer. It also seals holes in ancient tinplate tanks you think would be beyond recall.

The Petseal remover is methyl chloride, and I wonder how longer it will be possible to sell this nasty stuff to punters, retail. In the future we will probably have to send our tanks to Caswell.

My Dommie tank has some patches of 1970's hard green internal coating which I am fervently hoping it will remove successfully.

I find it hard to imagine that there is any precise science to relate a quantity of resin to a tank size, especially expressed in gallons. The lining will cure a tad thicker or a tad thinner, and the thickness will relate to the internal area, not the tank volume, of necessity.

I agree with you Tom.

Steve, I have used Slosh, supplied by my Millers agent. This is a one tin act and one tin will treat two Dommie tanks if you Slosh them at the same time..

The best advice is to find Ethanol Free petrol, outside of SW UK, all of BP's Ultimate, I was advised is Ethanol free (E0) I'm still waiting to hear from Texaco! Treating the tank is a part of precaution, like the ethanol resistant carb parts etc because in the UK you never really know what you are buying, unless you can find some BS4040 leaded! What happened to British Standards? Stay away from EN228 to avoid problems and demand E0, it's the only way. Lobby your MP!

If you are not using your bike for more than a few days then turn the petrol off and run the engine until the pipe and carb are dry. Ethanol ate my Commando's petrol pipes several years ago. Since then I have beenfilling up95% ethanol free....I think?

Oddly enough in the classic car world there is no mention of tank sealants or draining tanks and carbs when the car is not in use, and yet they share the same problems.I have so far avoided any use of tank sealants - I leave bikes and elderly Land Roverswith full tankswith a squirt of 2 stroke oil mixed in. Tanks should be either full or empty. Aircraft are always left full tanks to avoid the condensation problem which in some aircraft is severe -Consolidated Catalinas being particularly susceptible, just in case you are offered a lift in one.

Likewise for paragliders - get your fuel from an airfield. Some Castrol 2 stroke oil was removed from sale for while with a list of reccomendations for paragliders, as it MAY have contained water - I bet the user got his fuel from a garage and left it in the garage for a while and that is where the water came from.

Sadly, I have an old two stroke motorcycle and it loves the cheap fuel - have yet to inspect the tank though!

I have been using BP Ultimate and the Shell top grade here in the Kent area,Corrosion appears to be less of a problem but the plugs soot up very fast so i'm still not happy!!.

Robert, Shell put Ethanol even in V Power. Still waiting to hear from Texaco. There is a chance that Esso Supreme does not contain Ethanol but that depends on where you are.

The whole thing is a dogs dinner andhas been for years. Clear labeling is required Now you pay a fortune to buy chemicals to take away some of the bad effects of the ethanol you never wanted in the first place. I was looking at some pitted Morris valves this afternoon, caused by Ethanol.

This is all about government trying to meet their renewable targets, without a thought for your Norton! What happened to choice?