1959 Dominator 88 wet sump

Mr Jones, now you've started something!

Lots of info on this site about wet sumping, lots of differing opinions. Some fit valves, some fit taps, others advocate refurbishing the oil pump and so on. My 99 will wetsump a litre over four weeks or so, I usually drain off the sump if it's been standing for two weeks and get about a half litre. Whether a litre is excessive really depends over what time frame it has been left.

I find using straight 50 and leaving the pistons on the compression stroke significantly slows the wet sumping and when I drain the oil I tip it back into the tank. Others may leave it to splash feed the bottom end on start-up but if you do that it's probably a good idea to put a tray under the breather first!

Previously jones_jones wrote:

Hi I'm relatively new to the norton owners club and have had my bike only 6 months,had a couple of issues recently with fuel starvation & then the crankcase breather witch thanks to you guys I sorted out,However I undid the sump plug tonight and Nearly a 1 litre came out ! Have I got a major problem is it a new oil pump job is this a big job ? Some people fit Velocette anti wet sump valves I only trust this club so any advice please regards rob

Hi I'm relatively new to the norton owners club and have had my bike only 6 months,had a couple of issues recently with fuel starvation & then the crankcase breather witch thanks to you guys I sorted out,However I undid the sump plug tonight and Nearly a 1 litre came out ! Have I got a major problem is it a new oil pump job is this a big job ? Some people fit Velocette anti wet sump valves I only trust this club so any advice please regards rob

Well why did you take out the drain plug in the first place! Your worrying over nothing at all at lest there was Oil in there Only start worrying when there is No Oil in the Sump You Need That Oil in there On Start Up to Lubricate the parts in there That Are NOT under presser from the Oil Pump as the Biggest Part of a Norton engine are not under presser from the oil pump so a 1lt of oil is very Normal after been stud for some time, it will all go back too the oil tank once you have started the machine , so DO NOT Go Off and spend Money on Anti-Drain Valve or Taps This Only Masked the real problem the worm oil pump , But yours is OK So there Is No need to Do any thing and Putting SAE W50 Oil in only makes for harder starting And Good 20/50w is Good of most Norton engines And any one that say than different as no idea of Oil , I even Raced On a 20/50 with no ill effects what so ever I even ridden the bike home well over 100 miles after the race, So Stop worrying and Just ride your nice Norton and Have Fun Yours Anna J Dixon

Anna I bow to your greater knowledge of oil. I was just stating whatIdo - it wasn't necessarily an oil recommendation. People can of course use whatever they wish. Sorry if my comment appeared ambiguous.

Martin

Sorry Anna, a litre of oil in the sump is too much. Thr oil pump cannot return this much to the tank, before half of it has been blown out the breather. No harm will be done to the motor, but, it will make a mess. Martin's suggestion, of putting a tray under the breather, is a good idea. However, if time is available, running the engine, for about 5 minutes, every 2-3 days should solve the problem.

Like Martin, I also use straight 50 weight oils (non detergent with no oil filter, detergent if you use a filter) & try to remember to have the pistons at the top also. I started doing this per Les Emery & notice no difference in starting VS any other oil I have used in the past. I suppose if it were very cold & would make a difference, but I dont ride much in the cols anymore.My local auto parts store also stocks a 60 weight for the Harley Davidson guys

Sorry Anna, a litre of oil in the sump is too much. Thr oil pump cannot return this much to the tank, before half of it has been blown out the breather. No harm will be done to the motor, but, it will make a mess. Martin's suggestion, of putting a tray under the breather, is a good idea. However, if time is available, running the engine, for about 5 minutes, every 2-3 days should solve the problem.

hello no its not it all depends on how long the bike been stood for And its got too splash it all over to lubricate parts thats NOT under pressure from the oil pump, And my bike dose not make a mess it all goes back in the oil tank, And your w50 oil it OK for singles, But Technology in oil as moved on 20/50 been out for years as long as I can remember, and now we have Synthetic oil witch is a lot better , I just cannot under stand why member are stuck in the 1950s As for Norvil's advice I would take it with a pinch of salt, Hes A business man, he wants too sell parts!

Anna I bow to your greater knowledge of oil. I was just stating whatIdo - it wasn't necessarily an oil recommendation. People can of course use whatever they wish. Sorry if my comment appeared ambiguous.

Martin

well yes this is correct but if you want your machine to last longer I would go for a 20/50 or a Synthetic oil . I have had Motorcycles 40 years And I have Gone Though University and past out with a IME,Bs.Eng but that was in 1972 there been a lot of water run under the bridge since then thing have changed some what . and so do people and I have not had a easy time in life ether, and its not any easier now, and thing will get harder as time goes on, this time to batten down the hatches there's a big storm on its way in finance, the cost of living will go up allot, so make do and mend is back on the cards , yours Anna J

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously John Shorter wrote:

Sorry Anna, a litre of oil in the sump is too much. Thr oil pump cannot return this much to the tank, before half of it has been blown out the breather. No harm will be done to the motor, but, it will make a mess. Martin's suggestion, of putting a tray under the breather, is a good idea. However, if time is available, running the engine, for about 5 minutes, every 2-3 days should solve the problem.

hello no its not it all depends on how long the bike been stood for And its got too splash it all over to lubricate parts thats NOT under pressure from the oil pump, And my bike dose not make a mess it all goes back in the oil tank, And your w50 oil it OK for singles, But Technology in oil as moved on 20/50 been out for years as long as I can remember, and now we have Synthetic oil witch is a lot better , I just cannot under stand why member are stuck in the 1950s As for Norvil's advice I would take it with a pinch of salt, Hes A business man, he wants too sell parts!

Anna, I never mentioned W50 oil, I use Halfords Classic 20/50. Your Manxman may pump oil, from the breather, back into the tank, but the original question was regarding an earlier Dominator. The breather pipe on these, as you will see if you look at your own Dominator (if not modified), was designed to vent over the gearbox sprocket, and, lubricate the rear chain. Overfilling the oil tank meant that it also lubricated the rear wheel, and tyre!, but that is another subject, as is choice of oil.

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously John Shorter wrote:

Sorry Anna, a litre of oil in the sump is too much. Thr oil pump cannot return this much to the tank, before half of it has been blown out the breather. No harm will be done to the motor, but, it will make a mess. Martin's suggestion, of putting a tray under the breather, is a good idea. However, if time is available, running the engine, for about 5 minutes, every 2-3 days should solve the problem.

hello no its not it all depends on how long the bike been stood for And its got too splash it all over to lubricate parts thats NOT under pressure from the oil pump, And my bike dose not make a mess it all goes back in the oil tank, And your w50 oil it OK for singles, But Technology in oil as moved on 20/50 been out for years as long as I can remember, and now we have Synthetic oil witch is a lot better , I just cannot under stand why member are stuck in the 1950s As for Norvil's advice I would take it with a pinch of salt, Hes A business man, he wants too sell parts!

Anna, I never mentioned W50 oil, I use Halfords Classic 20/50. Your Manxman may pump oil, from the breather, back into the tank, but the original question was regarding an earlier Dominator. The breather pipe on these, as you will see if you look at your own Dominator (if not modified), was designed to vent over the gearbox sprocket, and, lubricate the rear chain. Overfilling the oil tank meant that it also lubricated the rear wheel, and tyre!, but that is another subject, as is choice of oil.

easy to do

Would a relentless can do?

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously John Shorter wrote:

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously John Shorter wrote:

Sorry Anna, a litre of oil in the sump is too much. Thr oil pump cannot return this much to the tank, before half of it has been blown out the breather. No harm will be done to the motor, but, it will make a mess. Martin's suggestion, of putting a tray under the breather, is a good idea. However, if time is available, running the engine, for about 5 minutes, every 2-3 days should solve the problem.

hello no its not it all depends on how long the bike been stood for And its got too splash it all over to lubricate parts thats NOT under pressure from the oil pump, And my bike dose not make a mess it all goes back in the oil tank, And your w50 oil it OK for singles, But Technology in oil as moved on 20/50 been out for years as long as I can remember, and now we have Synthetic oil witch is a lot better , I just cannot under stand why member are stuck in the 1950s As for Norvil's advice I would take it with a pinch of salt, Hes A business man, he wants too sell parts!

Anna, I never mentioned W50 oil, I use Halfords Classic 20/50. Your Manxman may pump oil, from the breather, back into the tank, but the original question was regarding an earlier Dominator. The breather pipe on these, as you will see if you look at your own Dominator (if not modified), was designed to vent over the gearbox sprocket, and, lubricate the rear chain. Overfilling the oil tank meant that it also lubricated the rear wheel, and tyre!, but that is another subject, as is choice of oil.

Well You need a Red bull can a T pipe some fuel pipe and if it all together pipe from engine to red bull can via a T pipe the T pipe end the Chain guard Its Lubricates yours chain

easy to do

No, I don't need a Red Bull can, T pipe, tubing, or anything else. I am quite happy with the original system.

I mentioned the 50 wt oil & Les Emery.

The 50 wt oil I use is Valvolene racing oil & contains additives not available for steet use. It is a very high tech oil & much better for my bike that oil made for road cars.Straight weight oil does not mean old school, it is made that way for a purpose as is multi weight.For my purpose I like straight 50 wt. oil.

see bottom of page for straight 50 wt.:

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/vr1_racing.pdf

They have been improving on oil for 140 years, I think they might just know what they are doing.

To say that a parts vendor is recomending bad oil so you will ruin your bike & cause you to by more parts from him is ridiculous & borders on slander. Not to mention that same vendor sells complete Nortons with the same oil.

We can all use whatever oil we choose, no harm, no foul, but please dont make baseless allegations & slanderous comments. Some like Mr. Emery, some do not, but he has built more Nortons than anyone on this forum i'll bet, so I tend to at least consider his advice as valid.

Hi Mr Jones,

I've been running Nortons now for over 35 years. I have always found that if left unrun for some time they will wet sump. Norton always denied that their bikes did this, but it is so common, partly due to the design of the pump itself (gear pump), that I think we have to accept they do it. I don't recommend fitting any kind of anti drain device, as I am pathologically afraid of putting any kind of restriction into the feed side of a gravity fed system. Likewise, I always use 50 w in my Nortons and change it every 1000 miles. My Mercury did in excess of 150000 miles on this oil without a filter either. My Commando still wet sumps despite a bottom end build by Norvil including a new pump (strangely my Atlas doesn't seem to). I have just accepted it and fitted Les Emery's special drain plug which has a smaller central bolt to ease draining. I wouldn't recommend starting a dry sump bike in the knowledge the sump was full of anything, you may get at worst a hydrostatic lock, which will bend a rod, or at best a lot of oil out the breather ( which will of course leave you low on oil).

I accept that some people are quite happy to run on 20/50 (which is now no easier to source than a monograde, as virtually all "modern" oils are either 10/50 or 10/40). Haynes always recommended it for everything in their manuals, but I suspect they had a link up with Wakefields! The logic relating to using a monograde was that the main bearings in most British engines are roller so they require monograde, as they batter the oil more, multigrades work fine in plain bearings, in fact you need it because of the need to get oil into the bearing quickly at cranking speeds.

I can't claim the technical training that Anna has, I am just saying what works for me...

The only real fix is ride the bike regularly. It was seldom commented on when the bikes were new, as they were used often enough for wet sumping not to be an issue.

I mentioned the 50 wt oil & Les Emery.

The 50 wt oil I use is Valvolene racing oil & contains additives not available for steet use. It is a very high tech oil & much better for my bike that oil made for road cars.Straight weight oil does not mean old school, it is made that way for a purpose as is multi weight.For my purpose I like straight 50 wt. oil.

see bottom of page for straight 50 wt.:

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/vr1_racing.pdf

They have been improving on oil for 140 years, I think they might just know what they are doing.

To say that a parts vendor is recomending bad oil so you will ruin your bike & cause you to by more parts from him is ridiculous & borders on slander. Not to mention that same vendor sells complete Nortons with the same oil.

We can all use whatever oil we choose, no harm, no foul, but please dont make baseless allegations & slanderous comments. Some like Mr. Emery, some do not, but he has built more Nortons than anyone on this forum i'll bet, so I tend to at least consider his advice as valid.

Well that,s your opinion but I am not you and read a lots off whats going on the net, and listen folks to and read all sides and then make my own judgment, based on engineering principles

Previously eugene_brolund wrote:

I mentioned the 50 wt oil & Les Emery.

The 50 wt oil I use is Valvolene racing oil & contains additives not available for steet use. It is a very high tech oil & much better for my bike that oil made for road cars.Straight weight oil does not mean old school, it is made that way for a purpose as is multi weight.For my purpose I like straight 50 wt. oil.

see bottom of page for straight 50 wt.:

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/vr1_racing.pdf

They have been improving on oil for 140 years, I think they might just know what they are doing.

To say that a parts vendor is recomending bad oil so you will ruin your bike & cause you to by more parts from him is ridiculous & borders on slander. Not to mention that same vendor sells complete Nortons with the same oil.

We can all use whatever oil we choose, no harm, no foul, but please dont make baseless allegations & slanderous comments. Some like Mr. Emery, some do not, but he has built more Nortons than anyone on this forum i'll bet, so I tend to at least consider his advice as valid.

If wet sumping is your only concern, then by all means use a 50 grade oil or for that matter use treacle. If lubrication is your concern, then I believe you are better of with a multigrade modern oil of 10W50, 15W50 or 20W50 grade.

Remember you actually do have plain journal bearings in you engine, they are called big ends and prefer the higher flow rates which you get from the multigrade at lower temperatures. Arguments about the effect of roller bearings on such oils are just untrue.

It was Mr. Emery's insistence on the use of low detergent monograde oils which inspired me to write my article for Roadholder in the first place.

One of the selling points of the Valvoline oil is that it contains friction modifiers. In a 50 grade oil I doubt that anyone will see an advantage from these in a Norton Engine.

Hi Charles,

thanks for your comments. There are good points for mono & multigrade oil in our Nortons & I am going to try to get a friend who works for STP in the engine dept. to write his thoughts on a different thread.

My main purpose for my previous comment was to point out that it would be obtuse to think that any business would purposely tell you to use the wrong oil so that when your engine wore out,or, that you would go back to that same person that ruined your engine & buy new parts. Not only would no buisness still be around if they did that, but no customer would be that stupid. To say Les recomends a different oil than someone else might use, no problem, but to say he purposely recomends the wrong oil to sell more parts would land you in court in many places.

I can only say for certain, that I like the Valvolene straight 50 racing oil & have had no ill effects for the type of riding I do & as a bonus, dramatically reduces my wet sumping. I like that this oil has zinc (so do my lifters), which was removed from oil for steet vehicles once catalytic converters came into play. Thais is why this oil is "not for street use". No worries, I have no catalytic converter on my bike

How nice to live in a warm climate where starting a bike full of straight 50 is an option. Here it has to be multigrade in winterunless you use the bike every day.2 degrees this morning. Brr.

Aren't we supposed to use straight 30 during the winter months?

Ah yes, but if you have a 25l drum of 20-50 lurking in the shed, it would be a shame to go buying straight 30. Pragmatism of laziness? You can decide.

More info on this subject from www.carbibles.com/engineoils which includes a viscosity performance/ambient temp. chart.

This suggests (approx.) a single grade 30 oil has this viscosity between the ambient temperatures of 0 deg C - 30 deg C. A single grade 40 oil between 20 deg C - 40 deg C.

So in the UK you could use SAE 30 all year round typically, but don't take your bike out on a chilly spring morning, because of higher oil viscosity, if you've thought winter is over and you've filled your tank with SAE 40. I like to take advantage of advances in science and engineering and use multigrade.

More info on this subject from www.carbibles.com/engineoils which includes a viscosity performance/ambient temp. chart.

This suggests (approx.) a single grade 30 oil has this viscosity between the ambient temperatures of 0 deg C - 30 deg C. A single grade 40 oil between 20 deg C - 40 deg C.

So in the UK you could use SAE 30 all year round typically, but don't take your bike out on a chilly spring morning, because of higher oil viscosity, if you've thought winter is over and you've filled your tank with SAE 40. I like to take advantage of advances in science and engineering and use multigrade.

Sometime I get feed up of writing ,Its like hitting a brick wall with some of you lot,.. Synthetic oils are a lot better than any Mono grade oil! Period

And you need some oil in the sump area on start up... or... there is nothing to lubricate major parts like the camshaft and its followers and the main bearings , There NOT under pressure from the oil Pump, there Slash feed, so read my thread and understand it, and the engine is Only Dry Sump When the Engine is running !! So stop worrying about a-bit of oil in the sump , and get on your bike and enjoy the ride out.

"Synthetic oils are a lot better than any Mono grade oil! Period"

not so, or thats all they would make. Synthetics are great for what they were designed for, not flat tappet vintage engines. Ill take my valvolene with ZINC (not available in synthetics) everytime. Oil companys upgrade all their oils, all the time, not just synthetics.

Another oil company to read about is the Classic Car Motor Oil:

http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/

you will find this section particularly interesting:

http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/articles.html#article-4

Skip Brolund

"Synthetic oils are a lot better than any Mono grade oil! Period"

Of course we need a precise definition of better. However, what is relevant is are synthetic oils appropriate for older engines? Possibly. Probably even. Those of us who have never used synthetic oils in our classic bikes seem to get by without any significant lubrication issues. Similarly, those who swear by synthetic oils seem to get by too. So what's the problem? You pays your money and you makes your choice.

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

This suggests (approx.) a single grade 30 oil has this viscosity between the ambient temperatures of 0 deg C - 30 deg C. A single grade 40 oil between 20 deg C - 40 deg C.

So in the UK you could use SAE 30 all year round typically, but don't take your bike out on a chilly spring morning, because of higher oil viscosity, if you've thought winter is over and you've filled your tank with SAE 40. I like to take advantage of advances in science and engineering and use multigrade.

Sometime I get feed up of writing ,Its like hitting a brick wall with some of you lot,.. Synthetic oils are a lot better than any Mono grade oil! Period

As usual Anna you have missed my point, which was, owners who prefer to use a single grade oil in the uk do not have to change oil for winter and summer use. They could use SAE30 all year round. Using SAE40 during periods of less than 20 Deg.C on start up and whilst the engine reaches operating temperature, results in a lower flow rate of oil through the engine, which is not good. As I stated, I use multigrade.

Previously eugene_brolund wrote:

"Synthetic oils are a lot better than any Mono grade oil! Period"

not so, or thats all they would make. Synthetics are great for what they were designed for, not flat tappet vintage engines. Ill take my valvolene with ZINC (not available in synthetics) everytime. Oil companys upgrade all their oils, all the time, not just synthetics.

Another oil company to read about is the Classic Car Motor Oil:

http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/

you will find this section particularly interesting:

http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/articles.html#article-4

Skip Brolund

Dear Skip,

ALL CRANKCASE OILS CONTAIN ZDDP'S. Some specifications require a lower level of Phoshorus and Sulph(f) ur than was the previous norm. Those oils which meet these new specifications use mainly Boron compounds to supplement the ZDDP. Their wear protection is at least as good as the 0.12-0.14 % P oils of the earlier specs.

All ACEA A2 and A3 spec oils have no limit on P and S content.

Motorcycle specific oils such as Mobil and the Harley oils also have 'normal' P and S levels.

Both ZDDP's and B compounds protect the valve train under sliding / rolling high pressure conditions where the oil film formed cannot keep the surfaces apart and scuffing due to localized welding and ploughing of surfaces would otherwise ensue.

There is nothing unique about our engines.

Hi Charles, while our engines are not really unique genarally, we do have flat tappets, rather than say, roller tappets. Also those of us without oil filters are unique compared to modern bikes, as we should not use a dtergent oil. A lot of what bases our oil selection should be riding temps, & how we ride.

Valvoline FAQ on their racing oil:

Racing Oil

1. What are the benefits to using a racing oil versus a regular "street legal" oil?

   The Valvoline VR1 Racing & "Not Street Legal"racing oilscontain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include fewer detergents than regular conventional motor oils.

2. What is motor oil with zinc?

   The anti-wear additive simply referred to as zinc by most car enthusiasts is actually short for Zinc DialkylDithiophosphates or ZDDP. Its primary role is to prevent metal-to-metal contact between engine parts by forming a protective film. Despite being referred to as zinc, this additive actually contains zinc and phosphorus, with phosphorus performing the anti-wear function in the motor oil with zinc.

3. Why is it important to have the zinc/phosphorus levels in motor oil changed?

   With ever increasing limits on emissions, automobile manufacturers have tightened emission control systems on newer vehicles. This is one of several factors considered when the American Petroleum Institute (API) sets standards for motor oil with zinc. The current API standard is SM which replaced the previous SL classification. Because phosphorus can poison a vehicle's emission system, the level of zinc is lower for current motor oil.

4. What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?

   Many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts believe the lower levels of zinc in SM motor oil is causing excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines. This is despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible. This has resulted in the widely accepted belief that modern motor oil is not adequate to protect older engines.

5. What solutions does Valvoline offer to the zinc issue?

   Valvoline offers two solutions to the zinc issue:

   1. Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil: Contains 75% higher zinc than SM motor oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono viscosity grades: 20w50, straight 50, 10w30, straight 30, straight 40, and straight 60.
   2. Longer-Lasting Zinc/Phosphorus: Valvoline uses an advanced zinc/phosphorus additive that keeps higher levels of phosphorus in the motor oil where it protects the engine instead of poisoning the catalytic converter. Valvoline is the only brand offering this unique additive across its entire line of passenger car motor oils including SynPower -- the only synthetic oil that offers this additive.

6. Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" racing oil?

   Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13 percent of zinc and .12 percent of phosphorus compared to the Valvoline"Not Street Legal" Racing Oilwhich contains .14 percent of zinc and .13 percent of phosphorus.

7. Will an additive boost the zinc level?

   You can use an additive to increase the zinc level. However, check with your motor oil manufacturer to ensure the additive is compatible with your racing oil.

8. Is VR1 a conventional oil, a synthetic or a blend?

   Valvoline VR1 racing oil is a conventional, non-synthetic racing oil.

Another opinion, on the "other side of the coin":

http://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php

Previously eugene_brolund wrote:

Hi Charles, while our engines are not really unique genarally, we do have flat tappets, rather than say, roller tappets. Also those of us without oil filters are unique compared to modern bikes, as we should not use a dtergent oil. A lot of what bases our oil selection should be riding temps, & how we ride.

...........................

Another opinion, on the "other side of the coin":

http://www.allpar.com/old/oils.php

Dear Skip,

I may have caused some confusion. As the cam rotates so the point of contact with the follower processes. Kinematic analysis leads us to describe such a situation as ' rolling/slidding'. This is in contrast to the piston ring/ liner situation which is pure sliding and roller/ ball races which should be pure rolling.

I have read the valvoline publicity. As far as it goes it is true. But my point about the use of Boron compounds as supplements to the ZDDP is valid.

Detergency in an oil is a good thing as they keep hot surfaces clean so that piston rings rotate freely. There is confusion with dispersancy which keeps sludge and soot from agglomerating and ruining our engines

Best wishes

Charles

Very interesting debate. Apart from my 650 that has knocked since the first time I started it up, I can't say I have had any wear issues on either my singles or Commando 850. I started running my Commando back in 1988 on 20/50 but it was Les Emery that suggested Straight 40 in about 1989 and I used it since.(Light detergent) I use straight 40, (no detergent) in my singles. I occasionally run the bikes in the Winter without concern, until I read the 20C temperature start range and now, despite no ill effects, I have to consider stocking up with straight 30 instead.

We had a normal UKSummer in 2013, first since 2006 where cool dampness would have been ideal for 30 grade during the years between. But with a cooling climate, perhaps 30 grade isthe way to go here? Your thoughts please.

PS: (Commando and twins) I have a gallon of Millers 20/50. Would that be good to leave in all year round, as was recommended when the Commando was new?

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

Very interesting debate. Apart from my 650 that has knocked since the first time I started it up, I can't say I have had any wear issues on either my singles or Commando 850. I started running my Commando back in 1988 on 20/50 but it was Les Emery that suggested Straight 40 in about 1989 and I used it since.(Light detergent) I use straight 40, (no detergent) in my singles. I occasionally run the bikes in the Winter without concern, until I read the 20C temperature start range and now, despite no ill effects, I have to consider stocking up with straight 30 instead.

We had a normal UKSummer in 2013, first since 2006 where cool dampness would have been ideal for 30 grade during the years between. But with a cooling climate, perhaps 30 grade isthe way to go here? Your thoughts please.

PS: (Commando and twins) I have a gallon of Millers 20/50. Would that be good to leave in all year round, as was recommended when the Commando was new?

Yes, in my view 20W50 is good except at very low temperatures when a 15W40 oil will help cold starting.

I could never understand the logic behind Mr. Emery's passion for low detergency oils. It seemed to me that he confused detergency with dispersancy and, since both detergents and dispersants improve wear protection, modern oils are preferable. I did e-mail a number of companies who supply both classic and modern oils and asked them why, given that detergents keep pistons and other hot parts of engines clean and since dispersants combat sludge and soot damage, I should not use their modern oils in preference to the classic ones?

Only one replied and at least acknowledged the validity of my point.

Perhaps Mr Emery can enlighten us?

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

"I could never understand the logic behind Mr. Emery's passion for low detergency oils. It seemed to me that he confused detergency with dispersancy and, since both detergents and dispersants improve wear protection, modern oils are preferable. I did e-mail a number of companies who supply both classic and modern oils and asked them why, given that detergents keep pistons and other hot parts of engines clean and since dispersants combat sludge and soot damage, I should not use their modern oils in preference to the classic ones?"

My understanding of detergent oils (as told to me years ago by an engineer with Standard Oil (now BP?), is that the term detergent is a bit of a misnomer, it really doesent "clean", it suspends the dirt & contaminants in the oil (much like laundry detergent suspends dirt in the water) so that an oil filter can filter it out of the oil. In an engine with no oil filter, the suspended particles go to all the bearings & other places you dont want it. The idea of running a non-detergent oil in non-oil filtered engines is that the "sludge" will settle in the bottom of the crankcase, or sludge trap. (or in the case of some BMW's, in the crankshaft slingers).

As to straight weight vs. multi-weight, the temperature ranges are much greater on the multiweight for sure (see the manufacturers charts, or api standards), but I guess this whole thread started with wet sumping, which I have very little of once the oil pump was refreshed, and I started using straight 50 weight. I rarely ride in very cold weather, or in extremely hot weather, so my oil requirements are going to be different than one who rides year-round I suppose.

I do believe that all oils today have the benifit of modern engineering weather straight weight, or multi weight, dino oil, or synthetic, detergent, or non detergent.

I think great consideration should be given to your personel riding habits & riding temperatures. Truth be told, you could probably use used oil from the local oil change shop & it would be better than some of the oils that were around back in the 1950's . It's amazing how long the recomended oil change intervals are now versus even 20 years ago. My new Ford Hybrid with synthetic can go 5 times longer on an oil change that previous cars I have owned.

I guess the only real way to know for sure about how your oil is doing is to send out a sample for testing, I see several places advertise $20 (12 GBP) for a full report, then we wouldnt be guessing ????

Well, thats my free advice, & worth every penny

Skip Brolund

Previously eugene_brolund wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

"I could never understand the logic behind Mr. Emery's passion for low detergency oils. It seemed to me that he confused detergency with dispersancy and, since both detergents and dispersants improve wear protection, modern oils are preferable. I did e-mail a number of companies who supply both classic and modern oils and asked them why, given that detergents keep pistons and other hot parts of engines clean and since dispersants combat sludge and soot damage, I should not use their modern oils in preference to the classic ones?"

My understanding of detergent oils (as told to me years ago by an engineer with Standard Oil (now BP?), is that the term detergent is a bit of a misnomer, it really doesent "clean", it suspends the dirt & contaminants in the oil (much like laundry detergent suspends dirt in the water) so that an oil filter can filter it out of the oil. In an engine with no oil filter, the suspended particles go to all the bearings & other places you dont want it. The idea of running a non-detergent oil in non-oil filtered engines is that the "sludge" will settle in the bottom of the crankcase, or sludge trap. (or in the case of some BMW's, in the crankshaft slingers).

As to straight weight vs. multi-weight, the temperature ranges are much greater on the multiweight for sure (see the manufacturers charts, or api standards), but I guess this whole thread started with wet sumping, which I have very little of once the oil pump was refreshed, and I started using straight 50 weight. I rarely ride in very cold weather, or in extremely hot weather, so my oil requirements are going to be different than one who rides year-round I suppose.

I do believe that all oils today have the benifit of modern engineering weather straight weight, or multi weight, dino oil, or synthetic, detergent, or non detergent.

I think great consideration should be given to your personel riding habits & riding temperatures. Truth be told, you could probably use used oil from the local oil change shop & it would be better than some of the oils that were around back in the 1950's . It's amazing how long the recomended oil change intervals are now versus even 20 years ago. My new Ford Hybrid with synthetic can go 5 times longer on an oil change that previous cars I have owned.

I guess the only real way to know for sure about how your oil is doing is to send out a sample for testing, I see several places advertise $20 (12 GBP) for a full report, then we wouldnt be guessing ????

Well, thats my free advice, & worth every penny

Skip Brolunf

OK,

For the sake of English pride, BP was /is a British Company. Standard oil was the old Rockefeller Empire, Esso, Mobil etc.

Detergents are Calcium or Magnesium salts of Sulphonic acid, salisylic acid or phenolic acid. They come either as metal soaps or attached to colloidal particles of Calcium or Magnesium Carbonate.

They dissolve deposits, thus keeping pistons etc. clean. Those attached to the carbonates neutralize acids preventing corrosion and wear.

Dispersants are usually polymers of polyisobutylene succinic anhydride and polyamine polyamide. They protect by stopping small bits of sludge and soot from agglomerating into large units which damage engines.

I don't think that oil testing is necessary. As you rightly say, EVERYTHINGl depends upon your local conditions, ridding habits and the state of your engine.

All the theory, lab. tests and road testing would indicate that multigrade will provide better lubrication over a wider range of temperature than a single grade. 200,000 miles out of modern engines is by no means exceptionaI, one reason is improved lubrication. I imagine oil companies sell 'classic' oils and single grade purely because there is a market generated by people like Mr Emery. It will be interesting to read his technical reasoning.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CF4QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nortonclub.com%2Fdocs%2FOilTemp.pdf&ei=jGhbUuXIOomd0AWK_YCYAQ&usg=AFQjCNFEbfnS378wnSxF07xOtal1ZD9w8A&sig2=RgftVaw-H_Qg9sQKXzSyfQ&bvm=bv.53899372,d.d2k

All interesing stuff gents, my concern was with wear through winter starting on straight 40 oil. Hope you can read the above link, talking about oil overheating.

Remember that it was 25 years since Les Emery advised the use of Straight 40, he may have changed his tune since then, although as I say, I've never had issue with it but will go to 20/50 in my Norton twins come next oil change. I may mix 30 and 40 in the singles, unless someone thinks that's a bad idea?

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

This suggests (approx.) a single grade 30 oil has this viscosity between the ambient temperatures of 0 deg C - 30 deg C. A single grade 40 oil between 20 deg C - 40 deg C.

So in the UK you could use SAE 30 all year round typically, but don't take your bike out on a chilly spring morning, because of higher oil viscosity, if you've thought winter is over and you've filled your tank with SAE 40. I like to take advantage of advances in science and engineering and use multigrade.

Sometime I get feed up of writing ,Its like hitting a brick wall with some of you lot,.. Synthetic oils are a lot better than any Mono grade oil! Period

As usual Anna you have missed my point, which was, owners who prefer to use a single grade oil in the uk do not have to change oil for winter and summer use. They could use SAE30 all year round. Using SAE40 during periods of less than 20 Deg.C on start up and whilst the engine reaches operating temperature, results in a lower flow rate of oil through the engine, which is not good. As I stated, I use multigrade.

well is obvious to me at you have not read my thread right with Synthetic oils you use one grade of oil all the time.

synthetics are great for what they are made for

When I had my first Dominator, in the 50's there were no multigrade oils. Since I thrashed the poor beast pretty hard, I used straight Castrol 40, for most of the year, and Castrol Grand Prix (a 50 grade) if it was a hot summer. With the introduction of 20/50 multigrade (as recommended by Norton) I now use nothing else ( and, I still thrash the poor '54 Dommi I own today). Wet sumping did not occur, for me, in the 50's, as the bike was my only form of transport used almost daily. I must admit that now, like most "Classic" bikes used less often, oil does drain back down after 3-4 days without use. The simle answer is; ride more often!

synthetics are great for what they are made for

and dream of the old days ,

Even the aircraft industry has started to creep into the 21st century with a semi-synthetic oil after many, many years of straight grade oils:

'Aeroshell Oil W 15 W 50 is a premium semi-synthetic multigrade ashless dispersant oil specifically developed for aviation piston engines. AeroShell Oil W 15 W 50 is a special blend of a high quality mineral oil and synthetic hydrocarbons with an advanced additive package that has been specifically formulated for multigrade applications.

The combination of non-metallic anti-wear additives and selected high viscosity index mineral and synthetic base oils, give exceptional stability, dispersancy and anti-foaming performance. The advanced additive package in AeroShell W 15 W 50 provides excellent protection to engines operating at extreme ambient temperatures. The ashless anti-wear additive package provides exceptional wear protection for camshafts and lifters and other wearing surfaces.

AeroShell W 15 W 50 has become very popular amongst engine manufacturers and operators alike. In order to cater for those Lycoming engines that need improved load carrying, the Lycoming LW 16702 antiwear additive has been incorporated into the formulation thus eliminating the need for supplemental additive addition'.

I wonder if the concours restoration bikes-on-trailers rivet counter brigadeare sneakily using modern oils? Assuming their engines have internals that is...

Previously Gordon Johnston wrote:

Assuming their engines have internals that is...

Cheeky bugger!

What, like pushrods?!!

Didn't stop the leaks...