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Anyone know these bikes?

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The search continues!

There's a couple of Commandos coming up at auction.  HJ Pugh.  Any members know them?  

I know buying at auction is a risk but the recent prices they've been fetching leaves me with a couple of grand to fettle...

Orange 750

750 Norvil Interstate

Would welcome opinions!

cheers

Mick

 

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... know them but Pugh seem to get lower prices generally, and their premiums are lower than the more well know houses.

I don't think buying at auction is much more of a risk than private sales. Meybe more than buying from a dealer but then you have to factor in their profit margin. Some years ago I sold a Velo Venom to a well known former numberplate dealer in the north west of England. I was happy with the price he paid me. A month or so later I saw the bike - polished up - on his website for nearly double the price!

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Dear Mick
Both look complete, shiney and ready to go with new oil and battery, probably from deceased estate as no doubt mine will be in years to come. Question is are you buying to ride? I have commandos that are pre 72, 72 and post 72. 72 was a special year, new engine cases without filter in oil pickup, and more important if you are a spirited rider new headstock angle on frame, they can be somewhat interesting in their behaviour at speed. Original brake is rather poor unless upgraded.
    73 on models had engine and frame deficiencies attended to, and one in your pic has a decent looking brake too so much better to ride.
Regarding pre 72 models, fine to ride, with drum brake, old style frame and engine.
All are getting on for 50 years old so expect a little settling and dont be surprised if tyres are of a certain age too.
Choice is yours, hope you get one at right price, unfortunately I have too many or would be bidding on later one too.

Regards Martin

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Thanks Martin and Ian,

Definitely  to ride!  However its always nice to have a bike pretty enough to admire from the cafe...

I prefer the 'sportster' livery over the interstate.  However the interstate looks like its been more regularly ridden and with the 'Norvil' patch on the side may have received a few uprated parts over the years.  The front brake does look its received some attention.

So the choice is 'prettier' or more 'practical'! 

Thanks for you info on 72 to 73.  Looks like I'll be studying Henshaw for a bit.

I guess its always a risk - at least if they are the right price then I have some resource left over to put things straight.  Prices do seem to be depressed at the moment - that's refected more in the auction side than in the classified side.

Thanks for the pointers.  Hoping to be at the East Yorks meet next sunday.

Mick

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The more common bikes tend to get better prices at Pugh's than Bonhams, daft, I know, but common bikes don't tend to do so well at Bonhams. Most buyers are there for the big ticket bikes. I think many see Pughs as an out in the country auction so believe they will get a bargain. 

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Thanks Ashley - can see the logic in that.  Was surprised how the prices were way down at Bonhams.  I think sunny weather also puts prices up!  Either way I'll set a limit to reflect the fact  that I can't get over to see the bikes - if they go for more than that then so be it.

cheers

Mick

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They both appear to have combat motors and the Interstate has a few base gaskets packed under the barrels to reduce the compression. Perhaps not a good idea, they might need replacing with a proper decompression plate. However, at the right price you could get a goodun. Best of luck with the bidding.

In reply to by dave_taylor

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Well Dave I looked up the serial number in Henshaw's book...  Combat!  However - it can't be on the original internals can it??  Both looking tidy - but of course we can't look inside...  guess it depends on the price.  Would be interesting to see if they still have a C prefix on the head.
 

but the heads do look like they've been well skimmed and the decompression gaskets on the Interstate would prove that. There is nothing wrong with a Combat motor when it's been assembled correctly with all the well known documented improvements.

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Hi Mick, the black interstate is not a Combat model as the engine number is after the number where Combats were discontinued. The barrels were probably silver originally but have painted black at sometime. Maybe see you at the East Yorkshire meet in Pocklington. Mine has the White tank with blue & red stripes.

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Thanks Donald,

Thanks for that.

Nice looking machine with the red white and blue colours.  Is that the same machine with a different tank in black and gold?  Looks nicely set up to do some miles!  I'll look out for you at Pocklington!

best

Mick

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Well the I've bought a '72 Roadster - possibly a Combat (hopefully with Superblend bearings by now...).  Will look out for the C stamp on the head.

So a re-comission will be in order and a set of Euro or flat bars.  I'll be picking everyone's brains at Pocklington tomorrow.  

Thanks everyone who's chipped in - especially Alan for the ride and chat.  

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Hello Mick, and welcome to the world of Norton.
From the pictures, it looks like you have (usually worthwhile) a tap on the oil supply from the oil tank. This will have been fitted to prevent the engine 'wet sumping'.
What I can't see is whether there are any wires coming from it to cut the ignition when it is 'off'.
If there aren't any,  may I suggest that you change the tap to one that does have the microswitch on it, wired into the ignition circuit otherwise it could easily end up as a very expensive 'Oh shit, I forgot' experience!
Best regards, 
George 

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Thanks super useful George - it was on my tick list to check.   Was planning the first thing to do is to check for wet sumping.  Sounds like the valve prevents that is fitted - I'll scour the photos once more - and yes some sort of 'remove before flight' tag will be required!

Would be useful if its not sumped while being stored.

Thanks for the heads up.

Mick

 

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I thought you could get anti drain valves that were automatic and mechanical - no action needed when starting the bike or parking it up for the working week?

Someone here will put me right - but I think the 850 Mk111 had a ball bearing and spring type arrangement that you can see accommodated in a small 'bubble' on the side of the crank case.  That was supposed to open under just the right amount of pressure and close when the engine wasnnt running.

I dare say someone with one of those fitted will chip in on its effectiveness.

I'm not sure how often the whole crankcase would fill up - but I think the results could be pretty bad if you went to start one with a full sump...  hence not worth the risk!

The Mk3 has a spring-loaded piston in the timing cover that presses against the oil seal on the pump outlet. Oil pressure moves the piston back. A valve in the feed line from the feed line from the oil tank quite different. You can fit a Mk3 timing cover to an earlier bike if desired.

OIl drains into the sump much more slowly on a Mk3 but it will drain the tank eventually, probably because the oil has other routes out of the pump.

As far oil in the sump goes, back-in-the-day (tm) we never worried about this. Just kick it over and run at low revs for a few seconds. The oil finds its way back to the tank pretty quickly and never caused me any problem. Ok, the bike was ridden far more frequently but not uncommon for it to stand for a week sometimes.

Lots of threads on here regarding anti sumping valves. Quite a few people recommend the Velocette offering, which is a spring and ball type. 
No experience of any device myself, so cannot offer an opinion either way. 

… are the way to go, in my view. The type offered by Mick Hemmings did, I understand, use actual Velocette internals. If one is to hand it should be perfectly satisfactory. But if offered a choice I think I would go for the Holland Norton Works version, for reasons discussed in previous threads.

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Mark Hawkins .....you poked a stick in a termite mound, by suggesting an automatic anti-drain valve to cure wet sumping.
Although the Velo one was adapted by Mick Hemmings for use on Norton's, you can't get away from the fact that it relies on atmospheric pressure (14psi) to lift the ball off its seat, as it is located BEFORE the oil pump.
The MkIII item is located AFTER the oil pump, hence it has full pump pressure (100psi?) acting on it.

Another thing to consider is that a tap, when open, has no restriction to the flow of oil.
A non-return valve (like the Velo item) will always have a ball & spring in line with the oil flow.

BUT....fitting a tap, although superior, has a downside.
As stated above, it must be fail-safe, with a microswitch cutting off your ignition until the tap is opened. A 'Remove before Flight" tab like airplane pilots have over their Pitot Tube....like our man says above.

 



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