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The plan for a 650SS and advise requested please

Submitted by william_dunn1 on Friday, 15 November, 2024 - 21:41
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Heavy Twins

Just renewed my membership today! Was riding my 1967 Norton 650SS for the last time this year today as well. It is not a numbers matching bike nor is it in standard trim but I love it. 

I'm an old guy and bikes have been my passion since  about 1966. Have owned loads over the years, mostly race replicas. On my ride out today on the old Norton  it struck me how much pleasure it provides me, one of the most enjoyable bikes to ride  for me ever. Not based in logic, strictly emotion........I grew up with these bikes.

Quick thumb nail review of the bike. 650SS engine (1967) in a slim line frame, fair few Dunstall bits, Thor Spark conversion to mag, engine rebuilt by me and runs wonderfully. Dunstall dual disc brakes up front. British made petrol tank. Bad bits, weak electrical charging, numerable oil leaks, slipping clutch, broken spoke in rear wheel. 

It also struck me today on the last ride out on it that it deserves better than what I've been showing it so want to develop a plan to bring it along so that we can retire together, estimated in another 5 to 10 years and then pass it on. 

Want to be able to get on it and ride it 1000 miles in daylight and after dark with out the need for  adding oil, be reliable (although it already is), safe in modern traffic and that's about it. To accomplish this I've been thinking  I should do the following.

-pin point the source of oil leaks and take corrective action the primary area is the head gasket.   have made a few attempts but poor results, both the head and barrel have been flattened.
-upgrade single phase alternator and regulator.
-belt drive clutch, (with all of this would appreciate your recommendation) as to which supplier.
-turn signals as much as I hate them on old bikes.
-re spoke the back rim and take a critical look at the front as well
-rebuild the front master cylinder, it's old and don't even know a source for parts

I have a well equipt work shop, lathe and milling machine and a chum in the village who owns a P11 and has done since new who is more gifted than me and willing to assist. 

Please comment on this undertaking with your ideas and suggestions. I will update my progress with this project over the next 7 months. Thanking you all in advance!!

Julian, sorry I didn't directly attach a photo to my original post. Paul Dunstall marketed twin disc front brakes I believe starting in 1966 so you could get a Norton with them, mine is one that does have them. I would say about as good as the TL front brakes at the time but they don't fade.

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N11.jpg

Submitted by alan_osborn on Friday, 15 November, 2024 - 23:27

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MAYBE. The first thing is to look at what you have and decide if any part is faulty. Then consider up grade as you go. Just buying/changing bits without looking at the whole system and understanding what and why you are doing things (and spending money) could be expensive and still have a poor result.

Alan, thank you for your reply. That is exactly what I plan to do as I have no intention of "just throwing money at it". At the moment I suspect the rotor has lost some of it's magnatisum and the stator is best described as tatty.At present it will keep the battery charged while running but not able to keep up with the electrical load with the headlight on so a bit of investigation is required.

Submitted by jan_nelder on Saturday, 16 November, 2024 - 06:44

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1. there can be weaps from other places that look like head gasket. Very careful observation may help. If it is gasket, Commando owners have suggested various thin smears of sealers etc.
2. Belt drive good for reducing primary oil drips, providing crankcase is checked for good oil seals and bolt holes have extra sealing. Similarly, big gearbox output shaft oil seal, and an extra pushrod seal in middle of clutch, if the Commando one has an Atlas version for belt clutches.

Submitted by william_dunn1 on Saturday, 16 November, 2024 - 10:23

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Jan, all sound advise. Thank you and I will follow up on your suggestions once apart. I am aware of a good sealer for use on Commando head gaskets but cant remember its name so will track that down. or if you are aware of a good sealer for the job please let me know. Thanks once again,

Submitted by gordon_johnston on Saturday, 16 November, 2024 - 06:48

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Fix the obvious broken bits - the spoke being the first. Think carefully about a belt drive. I don't have or want one. I took time to make sure the primary chaincase is oiltight. I keep hearing horror stories about belt drives though no doubt most find them fine.
Then it's just sensible normal maintenance. Sorting out the electrics should be simple and straightforward. The standard single phase RM21 alternator provides plenty of wiggly amps. Do you want to complicate? 

Gordon, thank you for your comments. Not sure why you think I want to complicate it based on what I described. These bikes went the way of the dinosaurs for a reason in spite of the fact we still love them. The Japanese made bikes that didn't leak and where and are more reliable. I simply or otherwise want to improve this old Norton so it doesn't leak, is more reliable and can cope with modern traffic.

I appreciate your opinion on  belt drives clutches but would like to hear from people that have tried them. For example, has anyone fitted a NEB assemble on a Dominator and if so how did it perform and what are the downsides to fitting one other than the cost.

Submitted by george_farenden on Saturday, 16 November, 2024 - 10:04

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Hi William,
I too run a 650 and like to use its full potential when I can, so here's my take on your questions.

1/Engine oil leaks - I tried fixing mine without long term effect until I installed a reed valve breather to it. You can get a CNW style sump plug one, expensive at first sight but works, Me? I took out the timed breather from the end of the cam and added an online reed valve from a Yamaha. It works, as I don't have a leak problem any more. Very cheap for the valve, but it does mean a full engine strip to do, so costs involved with this need to be considered.
2/ Upgrade of electrics good idea, but don't do it without thoroughly checking the loom for corrosion at every connection on it, as it is amazing how much extra resistance this can add. Alternator gets blamed as insufficient but your issue could be elsewhere. Me? I fitted a 180w 3 phase on mine with a Kawasaki 1100 VCR as well as all new wiring and am content.
3/ Indicators - Its worth having a good look at various 'accessory' sites, as there is an amazing amount of small but bright LED indicators available now. Should be straightforward to mount these so they are useful whilst being discreet. 
4/ Master cylinder - I have no idea what Dunstall used. Can you post a picture of what you have?
It is possible that the piston/seals are something generic, e.g  as fitted to a 1960's Mini. Knowing the piston size is your first priority. 
5/ Belt drive. OK, I'm in the luddite camp on these, but its your bike and money. If the chain system still works after 57 years there can't be a lot wrong with it is my take.  I took time to make sure that the case halves fitted together properly and that the sliding seal was good and mine is leak free.
As has been said above, sealing the inner case and alternator mount screws to the crankcase well is essential to prevent leaks.

Most important thing is to make sure that you enjoy what you are doing.
Regards,
George. 
 

Submitted by william_dunn1 on Saturday, 16 November, 2024 - 11:14

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George, great suggestions and very helpful. Thank you! I have installed a reed valve on a customers  Commando that I sourced out of the states. Very expensive, about £700 for the sump plug unit. It ran fine and did not leak while testing and I never heard back from the customer so suspect it did the job. Will attach a picture of the bike to this, very handsome Commando.

I'm very interested in the Yamaha reed valve and am quite prepared to do that mod. If you don't mind I'll PM you for a bit more information. I have heard of it being done but have very little detail on it's application.

Front master cylinder, just out to the shed and took a couple of pictures, please see attached.

I will take your advisement under consideration re belt drive system. I would love to make the original chain /tin case  existing system work with out leaking so may revisit that. Would still like to hear from members that have used the NEB belt drive clutch on their Domi's.

Would love to hear more detail on your electrics upgrade re 3 phase alternator and Kawasaki regulator. Pictures would be great maybe best PM them if your able George. I made up and fitted a Kawasaki side stand that mounts to the front left engine plate, it really worked out well and happy to share a photo of that. It will only works with Dunstall type swept back pipes.

Thanks once again, and yes......................I'm having fun!!
 

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mc2.jpg
mis12.jpg
side2.jpg

AP Lockheed. They still make a larger bore variable ratio one suitable for twin lockheed calipers ,  which I find gives useful fine tuning to 'feel'. ( though pricey)

Submitted by alan_osborn on Saturday, 16 November, 2024 - 10:46

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...examine every join on the loom-waste of time. If the loom is more than 10 years old, the ignition has been changed (Thorspark- now needs an ignition switch as opposed to magneto) then it is time for a rewire-easy job!!
But do not rip the bike apart before running the engine to see how good/bad the alternator is.
Most of the fine points about the electrics can be done via PM/email/phone to me.

Submitted by gordon_johnston on Sunday, 17 November, 2024 - 06:32

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My Atlas-engined 99 is oiltight despite being used somewhat energetically. No need for reed valves if it's put together properly. If it's left for more than a couple of weeks it does wet sump. Solved by draining the oil tank if it's not going to be used for a while.
I'm in favour of keeping things fairly standard with the exception of going to 12 volts - I do like my heated grips. I'm all for LED tail lights too but stick with an ordinary incandescent headlight. If the alternator is chucking out 100 watts or so, why not use them?
I also love my magneto - no dependency on iffy charging for whatever reason. 

Submitted by william_dunn1 on Sunday, 17 November, 2024 - 09:19

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Gordon, thank you for your contribution to my request but we disagree on the way forward as it pertains to my bike and needs. I'm old enough to remember drip trays in show rooms under brand new British bikes. If I had a bike with a magneto that worked I would remove it and sell it as, in my opinion, it's only a matter of time before the unit fails and another £700 to repair so it can fail again. The critical statement is IN MY OPINION so that does not make it a fact but only an opinion.

I've had the pleasure of riding a Colorado Norton Works bike and that is the direction I wish to proceed in. Trying to improve on a bike that is now 57 years old and yet retain it's character.

I disagree with your approach but respect your right to have it as I'm hoping you will mine.

 



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