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Navigator Kick Start issues + what's this?

Submitted by gerard_day on Mon, 13/06/2022
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Light Twins

Hi All.

Firstly an introduction: I'm Gez, I've recently obtained a Navi after passing my bike test at the merry age of 52 (what midlife crisis?). Prior to that, I've been tinkering with an pootling around on a BSA Bantam D1!

On to the topic: the 1962 Navi came with a few issues that I've worked through (sticky clutch: strip down and boil in detergent + could only get gears 1,&2: bent centre lug for the gear lever & new pawl spring). My current issue is that the kick start only engages 4/5 times: when it does, there's no compression, but some resistance felt. I've opened up the gearbox as far as removing the kick start shaft: the bush at the end is worn, so this might be the culprit. I'll also replace the spring that sits around the shaft.

If anyone has a similar experience or advice, it will be warmly received!

The "what's this" in the title refers to a small shouldered pin that I found sitting by the main shaft bearing: any ideas of where this is from please?

Attached are photos of the kick starter shaft bush, the pin as found and the pin by itself.

Thanks for reading!

Attachments
Screenshot_2022-06-13-09-38-02-95_99c04817c0de5652397fc8b56c3b3817.jpg
Screenshot_2022-06-13-09-37-41-74_99c04817c0de5652397fc8b56c3b3817.jpg
Screenshot_2022-06-13-09-37-10-90_99c04817c0de5652397fc8b56c3b3817.jpg

Submitted by peter_holland1 on Mon, 13/06/2022

Permalink

Is the one that fits in the hole visible on the thread and to the right of the main shaft nut. Don't lose it. It stops the clutch actuator rotating.

Looks to me as though a new (fresh) kickstart ratchet would help.

Peter 

Submitted by gerard_day on Mon, 13/06/2022

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Hi Peter.

I see the hole you mean .... The pin isn't mentioned in the manual.

I was rocking the nut with a deep socket, not being sure whether it was  LH or RH thread, so I must have wiggled the pin out. It all makes sense seeing as the pin wasn't showing laying around in an earlier photo, before attempting to remove that nut!

 

Yes, the rachet looks worn. Being a learner on this stuff, I can't make sense of the extended bit of the ratchet.. What does that engage to?

(Thanks to Robert for your input also!).

Thanks again!

Gez

Submitted by peter_holland1 on Mon, 13/06/2022

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Gez,

The extended part of the ratchet gear provides an anti-rotation stop.

When at rest the ratchet is held hard against a metal pin in the inner gearbox end plate assembly by the kickstart spring. This spring is also holding the kickstart lever up.

When you rotate the kickstart lever, the skew gear on the kickstart shaft pushes the kickstart ratchet gear inwards, into engagement with first gear ratchet. Further rotation of the kickstart then turns the engine over.

To get wear on the ratchet gear as you have photographed, the ratchet must be touching the first gear pinion while the engine is running. 

With a healthy kickstart return spring, with enough tension, the ratchet is pulled out of engagement with first gear by the skew gear. 

The bush in your last photo is in the kickstart shaft and supports the gearbox layshaft. Part number 041469, fig ref B56 in the parts book. Looks well worn too.

Strongly suggest you get a parts book and a manual to cover your Navigator.  Lots more parts than a Bantam. You can purchase the manuals from the NOC website or through the National Motorcycle museum (Bruce Main-Smith Ltd)

Peter

Hi Peter.

I have this manual, but I have a feeling that you're going to tell me it's sub-par: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194772294818?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=snzztaicsb6&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=5PM6wHeCTg2&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=SMS

I'm using the NOC on line spares book, which I'm finding most parts with.

Thanks for the kick start description: I think I've got it after a few reads!

I had a look: that hole on the nut doesn't seem to take the rogue pin: it's not a hole, but a deep centre punch mark for locking the but (I've seen that locking method elsewhere). There is a 'half-hole' on the threaded shaft which this punch mark lined up with, so perhaps I have a replacement but without the 'half-hole'?

I'm therefore still a little paranoid that the pin is from elsewhere!

 

Thanks again,

Gez.

 

Attachments
Screenshot_2022-06-13-16-51-45-54_99c04817c0de5652397fc8b56c3b3817.jpg

Submitted by peter_holland1 on Wed, 15/06/2022

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Gez,

Welcome to Nortons. From your excellent photos. 

Your layshaft bush in the kickstart looks very worn. The kickstart ratchet has been dragging against first gear.

I suggest. Your bike has been run with insufficient oil in the gearbox. The layshaft has started seizing in it's bush. This has dragged the kickstart shaft round. The ratchet has been driven against the rotating first gear. Probably not heard by rider over other noises - at first.

The correct oil level is to the rearmost gearbox cover fixing screw. Not obvious and perhaps not in your manual. Remove this screw, which should have a fibre washer under the head, and fill till oil gets to screw/level hole.

Failure of both inboard and outboard layshaft bushes due to low oil level is well known among lightweight riders but not if you keep an eye on gearbox oil level.

Hope you soon bond with the Navigator. It's a charming ride.

Peter 

 

 

Submitted by gerard_day on Sun, 06/11/2022

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Hi all.

I thought I'd close this out in the interests of anyone else experiencing the same trouble.

So, I took the clutch side cover off to watch what moved, or didn't, when kick-starting. The clutch was slipping and I realised that you need the clutch engaged and (obviously, I suppose) to be in neutral. As the clutch dried out, kicking the engine over became more reliable.

It was at this point that I had a couple of flashbacks to things I had previously read on the forum: 1) that you can have too slippery oil in the clutch and 2) the clutch needing to be engaged.... I have a feeling that on rides, if I stalled the bike, I'd instinctively leave it in gear, pull the clutch in and try kick-starting, to no avail!

I've now put ATF in the gearbox/clutch (after boiling the plates in detergent) and am mindful of being in neutral, with the clutch out and my issues have disappeared!

I must admit that the starting only with the clutch engaged is a bit alien to me, but every day's a learning day!

I never would have figured it out without the info on the forum, so thanks to everyone's input, directly or indirectly!

Cheers, Gez.

P S. It was Halford's own Vintage motor/gearbox oil that I was using: worth noting not to use in the clutch!

 


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