Looking at Pre War Internationals

Tom..I'm putting a pic of my collection in 'General'. 

There are a few good web sites. The late George Cohen's pages are still posted. The Racing Vincent site has RacingNorton appended, and there's a lot of interesting tech stuff there. I have a few web pages printed also.

Hi Tom,

if you’re to become an owner you need to be aware they’re International Nortons, like Manx Nortons, not t’other way round.

Enjoy, on a good one and on the right roads it can be ‘like riding with the gods’ to quote Titch Allen.

Hi Tom,

   The title says it all as there are a lot of Inters of all years which are built from sometimes just an engine and using chassis parts from cheaper models. An example of this are the 1939 MGP models of which 61 were built originally and there are only 112 left !! The "Super Profile" book gives a good general guide to owning a pre-war model and the bike featured looks very original, but you will find it difficult to get one that good. Inters, because of their racing heritage, are one of the most modified bikes in classic circles and these out-number those that are still original. The other big issue is the cost which can be 3 times as much as a push-rod Norton, so are they worth it ? That's all down to you, the prospective buyer. As a riding experience the answer is no, especially if you are not used to a rigid frame, but the kudos, conversation and pride of ownership derived may well warrant it. If you find a bike you consider buying, post some pictures on here first and one of us will be able to give you some relevant advice.

   While on my high horse on the subject of over-priced bikes, the National Motorcycle Museum recntly sold a 1937 Brough Superior SS100 for £275,000. This would buy you a dozen Inters, so I find it a puzzle why a bike with a Matchless engine, Norton gearbox and Royal Enfield wheels attracts such large sums of money. Surely Lawrence of Arabia couldn't have owned all of them !

The prices are high but if it is a good one you shouldn't have much trouble selling it if you need to reclaim the expense. Just don't break it. But they are very robust motors.  Unless I am mistaken, they are they only Norton with forced lubrication directly at the cam surface and big ends.  As Richard says, there are allegedly bikes with the wrong frames etc, (although it's a mystery me why there should be more engines than frames? Accident damage, I imagine). But really only an expert is likely to know the difference or even much care. Mine is rigid and of course it's no featherbed on bumpy roads, but rigidity also makes it feel safe and predictable at any speed...the "world's best roadholder" albeit in the 1930's. It's not as fast as my Dommie but it feels like it is, and it's got plenty of urge...and on the subject of authenticity, you never see any two the same anyway. Or hardly ever...

The cam lubrication is different on the race bike cam boxes, recognisable by the hex bolt head in the centre of the top bevel cover, and usually magnesium (always?). Paul Norman's site has lots of info about the insides of the engines. If you are lucky, you won't need to know any of it!

I have a '35 350cc Inter, a bike that David and Richard are familiar with. As Richard says, they are rare enough to be a talking point, just try leaning it against a pub fence and someone will always take a photo. The 350cc is considerably less expensive than a 500cc and much revvier?.The rigid/girder model is fun to ride, low, very light and well balanced, goes like a rocket with superb acceleration. Mine has never had lights and with the TT carb having no tickover provision, and a 'mellow' Brooklands Can silencer, the bike is slightly limited in use. Having said that, I rode it at a fair pace in a group to the Dutch Rally 2 years ago and to the Wexford Rally a few years before that....and ridden to and ridden in many Irish National Rallies in Killarney, with 150 miles a day plus for 4 days of mixed road, semi off road and some goat paths, you soon see the challenge and fun they bring. Great bikes, buy one if you can find one. Plenty advice on this forum.

Dave

Dave's bike is as quick as you need a prewar bike to be. I've not ridden both but in practice I suspect the 350 will be just as quick because it's smoother and therefore more comfortable at higher revs. It's a little smaller also, and that makes it nimble.  Don't turn down a Model 40.  If you look at the prewar Norton brochures you may find race times and the time differences were not all that big. And you won't be competing anyway, will you?

Just too stir the pot, in my book, whilst they may not be as handsome, the featherbed inter has far better handling and lighter weight. If you want the riding experience that is the one to go for.

I’ll duck for cover now, disappear off the grid etc before all the pre war inter owners come gunning for me...........

Hi Thomas

Welcome in advance to the cammy club. First of all understand that cammy Norton ownership will be a joy & privilege, but don't loose sight that it is an illness too.  You will find a small network of NOC members that will help and support you all the way. As has already been stated finding a totally original bike will be next to impossible. The very nature of their racing pedigree means they will be crashed, altered, restored & re-restored over the years. The best advice I can give you is consult someone or take them with you before shaking and parting with any cash. The NOC Marque specialist Barry Stickland is a walking Inter encyclopaedia and very helpful. Even if you have to pay for some specialist advice from somewhere it would be worth it in the long run. That way you will know exactly what you are buying. Good luck finding a good one.

Paul Gibbons (Kent & Surrey Branch)

I imagine you've already seen these Thomas, however:-

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/cat/15/643/international/

Most of us will claim to prefer our own I suspect. The claim made in print for improvement in race speeds by prewar plunger bikes is alleged to be better brakes, rather than better cornering speed. Their handling is not often praised. But clearly they must be more comfortable as well. The plunger bikes are quite a lot taller, so they have to my eyes a more imposing presence. Since for most of us these are indulgent toys, I think you can only really decide which you personally prefer the look of, if you are lucky enough to have a choice. I have one type but I'd be equally happy to have any of the others, and I'm sure that applies to most owners.

https://www.handh.co.uk/auction/lot/lot-119---1937-norton-international/?lot=52544&so=4&st=Norton&sto=0&au=495&ef&et&ic=False&sd=0&pp=96&pn=1&g=1

Let us know how much it goes for!

here is interesting web about pre war norton a lot of fotos and manuals

http://www.vintagenorton.com

and bike for sale

http://www.classic-motorcycles.net/D_R_CLASSIC_MOTORCYCLES/1952_Norton_International_500cc.html

and literature

https://www.bluespark.com.au/2013/06/norton-international-long-stroke-manx-workshop-manual/

Iam too looking for some project for restoration inter or cs1 pre war

Please if somebody found something give me info.

Thanks Tomas

Hi David/all,

   This is the Inter featured in the super profile book which was sold yesterday. Looking at the frame number, it seems to be too low for 1937 and doesn't match the spec for the earlier type, so there may be a discrepancy sometime in the past when registering it ??

https://www.handh.co.uk/auction/lot/lot-119---1937-norton-international/?lot=52544&so=4&st=Norton&sto=0&au=495&ef&et&ic=False&sd=0&pp=96&pn=1&g=1

Regarding engine numbers, I just found this. No idea of its origin.

http://classicenglishbikes.com/tech_file/norton.html

... makes the DR classic bike look expensive. I remember going to him once to check out an AJS M18 my brother was interested in but it was pretty ropy.

 The PO of mine bought it when it looked a bit like that. It was a long and costly exercise to get it on the road, by which time he was too old to enjoy it.

Hi all,

   When comparing the numbers, even on original bikes, the frame numbers lead the engine by several thousand and by 1939 there was more than 8,500 difference between the two. This is what makes me think there is a discrepancy with the "Super Profile" bike. The list David has posted states the post war numbers are for the end of year, but they are for the beginning with 1001 being the first post war number used.

Probably as many Norton owners disagreed as those who agreed with the late George Cohen's somewhat carefree approach to authenticity for Norton Singles. But I've never seen two Inters that look so alike that you could disguise one for the other. They were used and grossly abused on road and track and even off road for decades, and it seems most were built to order to begin with. So unless you really want to win cups at Stafford and the like, 8 don't think you should be too precious about authenticity. Surely, after something between 60 and 90 years, what matters is if it looks good and goes well? 

Hi all,

   Sorry if this thread is going on too long, but forewarned is forearmed.

Tom,

   Completely agree with your comments on auction houses and fees, we are in the wrong business. Mind you, I don't feel I could do that work and take that much money from bereaved families that their parents had thought would go to them.

David,

   Yes, George was a great salesman and if you wanted some history he would find you some to match a bike, regardless. My Inters are not catalogue and are made up of various year parts, but this is missing the point I was trying to make of deception to gain financial reward. There is nothing wrong with a bike built from different (lesser ?) parts as long as everyone is aware and honest in their description. Just think how someone would feel if they had paid £20K for a supposed Inter to find it had been built up from 16H/ES2 cycle parts and was only worth £12K. To back up the above, there are 2 such machines coming up for sale in Bonhams July sale.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/26514/?department=MOT-CYC

" Completely agree with your comments on auction houses and fees, we are in the wrong business."

Yes, to a point but dealers are even worse. A year or so ago I was idly fancying a Birmingham Scott (sanity has however prevailed). I saw one go at one of the big auction houses for around £6,000. A month or so later the same bike was up for sale at a dealer for £10,000. It looked as though it hadn't been touched in the interim.

I'd much rather buy from a private individual accepting that there will be no guarantees, however my limited experience of buying from dealers has shown me that these are generally worthless.

I think you're being a bit harsh, Ian.  I bought my ES2 from Pembrokeshire Classics.  I found their service friendly and they allowed me to test ride the bike before buying.  I thought the price was fair too.  I've had it for some years now and grown attached to it.  I had a less satisfactory experience at a dealership in Wiltshire.  I looked at a 19S which was hard to start and there was no chance of a test ride.  I declined that one.

I think it depends on the dealer and the bike.

There are good and bad in all walks of life. And yes plenty of dishonest punters too....but coming back to dealers, a little tale from the back of my grey cells...

Back in 19mumblety, when fags were 10 bob and a pint was a florin, myself and a couple of other green 'erberts went to look at a bike in W London advertised I think in Exchange and Mart (there, I've outed my age!). It might have been an old Enfield single, dont rightly remember. We found it at the back of the showroom, poked and prodded it, and somehow managed to start it. Eventually a Salesman descended to Earth from the Office. We asked, how much was it, a tenner or whatever I think. He continued, but you know its siezed? No it isnt we said, we've just started it up!

Oh well he said, in that case it'll be more.....

We made our excuses and left.....

My thoughts are that early bikes  tend to be small and low  and you may find the riding position  very cramped if you are  tall.  Spares and information  situation  very different   to later bikes  and  I would not take on a project without  decent workshop facilities.  But time is on your side ,so if you have lots of patience  and don't intend to ride  too far then  why not.

The 40 is smaller and I suspect you might find it cramped...if not now then later. A rigid 30 fits me fine (just over 6 ft) but I have to make sure my trousers are loose enough at the thigh to avoid cramp. I think the plunger bikes are taller. And the featherbeds are the same size as all the others even though the frames have differences.

You can't gain much by fitting longer saddle springs unless you also alter the height of the nose of the saddle. And move it backwards. I did that on my 16H and it doesn't look very pretty. But if you already ride a 16H you shouldn't have trouble with any of them. Don't wear tight trousers!

Yes.