Wet sumping

As my Norton (1949 Model 18) seems to 'wet sump' very quickly,I just wondered if this is normal? Is this something these bikes are plagued with? Or perhaps,worn oil pump? Now fitting an inline tap has stopped it as long as I remember to turn it on/off.But is this normal?

Regards Darren

Well this is a bad thing too do your engine is splash feed the only thing that the pump for is the large roller journals and they run dry with a tap fitted as it take 30 seconds or more for the oil to get round to the big end bearing and you real problem is the worn oil pump makes it even worse . so I can see a Model 18 locking up on you, and a trip to Mike Pembleton for a engine rebuild . and that not cheap, ether ,So a new oil pump a lot cheaper Yours Anna J

Alright Anna,

you mention a worn oil pump which is a possibility. I wonder what would be your opinion of a professional singles specialist who possibly neglected to service the oil pump during a complete engine rebuild?

Simon.

They all leak, don't they? The oil pump doesn't have to work at very high pressure so 'possibly neglecting to refurbish it' to the theoretical standard of a new one might be perfectly reasonable. Just an opinion of course!

Some of the Norton books claim that the company denied wet-sumping took place. But the WD manual notes "it is possible when an engine has been idle for any length of time for the oil to syphon through the return gears to the sump. When this happens all the oil is turned to the tank in the first few minutes that the engine is wasted..."

If they wrote 'possible' they must have known it really meant "always".

Hi.

I think what Nortonâs actually meant was that oil âsyphonsâ or leaks from the feed gears of the pump through to the return gears along the oil pumpâs spindles/shafts as there is no way it can syphon down the return side from the tank when the return outlet is well above oil level. My 1960 ES2 is pretty good in this respect and nowhere near as bad as my Dommi. Things to check are:

Test for play in the spindle by pulling and pushing the worm wheel.

Scouring in the pump body and pump end plates along with damage to the pump gears.

Wear/damage to the pump spindles.

The condition of the pump outlet â is it damaged â and the condition of the sprung loaded ball and its seating in the timing case where the pump outlet connects. (N.B. not the pressure relief one). This ball is supposed prevent oil leaking when at rest.

The pressure relief valve seating â IF the bike wet-sumps when the engine is running.

The condition and thickness of the fibre washer(s) that go between the pump and the timing cover/panel. This washer(s) should âprevent the edges of the panel meeting the case by 1/32â. This ensures that when the panel pins are tightened the washer is compressed making an oil tight joint.â

Use Monograde 40 oil (Iâve used multi-grade in the past) does seem better for these engines and theoretically takes longer to âleakâ - although it sounds like this will have minimal effect in your case.

As far as the pump itself is concerned â scouring on the end plates can be corrected by lapping with fine grinding paste on a piece of plate glass. If the pump face to crankcase needs the same treatment donât forget to relieve the edge of the brass plate before re-assembly. Damage to the innards of the pump means new body/spindles/gears. Single pumps differ from Twinâs in that the feed/return gears are on different sides of the pump and the outlet on the singleâs pump is near the worm spindle, the twinâs is near the brass end plate.

Having said all this, my ES2 has sucked the remains of at least two big-ends up through it and takes two to three weeks before any appreciable amount of oil makes its way to the sump - sorry!

Ian.

Hi Darren,

Take a look at this thread if you haven't already,

http://www.nortonownersclub.org/noc-chat/technical4-commando-forum/65493698

I know it's related to a Commando, but I'm sure it could be relevant to a single.

Regards, Tim

Hi.

I think what Nortonâs actually meant was that oil âsyphonsâ or leaks from the feed gears of the pump through to the return gears along the oil pumpâs spindles/shafts as there is no way it can syphon down the return side from the tank when the return outlet is well above oil level. My 1960 ES2 is pretty good in this respect and nowhere near as bad as my Dommi. Things to check are:

Test for play in the spindle by pulling and pushing the worm wheel.

Scouring in the pump body and pump end plates along with damage to the pump gears.

Wear/damage to the pump spindles.

The condition of the pump outlet â is it damaged â and the condition of the sprung loaded ball and its seating in the timing case where the pump outlet connects. (N.B. not the pressure relief one). This ball is supposed prevent oil leaking when at rest.

The pressure relief valve seating â IF the bike wet-sumps when the engine is running.

The condition and thickness of the fibre washer(s) that go between the pump and the timing cover/panel. This washer(s) should âprevent the edges of the panel meeting the case by 1/32â. This ensures that when the panel pins are tightened the washer is compressed making an oil tight joint.â

Use Monograde 40 oil (Iâve used multi-grade in the past) does seem better for these engines and theoretically takes longer to âleakâ - although it sounds like this will have minimal effect in your case.

As far as the pump itself is concerned â scouring on the end plates can be corrected by lapping with fine grinding paste on a piece of plate glass. If the pump face to crankcase needs the same treatment donât forget to relieve the edge of the brass plate before re-assembly. Damage to the innards of the pump means new body/spindles/gears. Single pumps differ from Twinâs in that the feed/return gears are on different sides of the pump and the outlet on the singleâs pump is near the worm spindle, the twinâs is near the brass end plate.

Having said all this, my ES2 has sucked the remains of at least two big-ends up through it and takes two to three weeks before any appreciable amount of oil makes its way to the sump - sorry!

Ian.

hello Norton's Only wet sumps when the engine is NOT running but any oil that gets into the sump is only a good thing as on start up you need that oil there to do its job of lubricating your main bearings cam shaft and followers and the under side of the piston like the small end and timing gears Witch are All SPLASH feed any way So Stop worrying about a pint of oil in your sump and Just start the thing and get on your machine and go out and Enjoy the ride out, Yours Anna J

I think you've got a bit confused there Anna - it's Darren who's got the wet sump problem - not me!

However, as far as wet sumping when running:

Onsingles, oil is sprayed to the rear of the cylinder/piston and its underside bya small drilling in the cylinder boreleading from the pressure relief valve. Like thetwins, when oil is cold and thepressure is high, oil is sprayed, via the valve, over the timing gears and then drains to the sump. As the hole in the relief valve is bigger than both the big end feed jet orifice and the cylinder feed drilling,one can imagine the result if the relief valve seating is damaged, or its spring knackeredor ifdirt is lodged under the ball - especially if the pump is worn on the scavenge side and not living up to its 2:1 ratio.

Finally - I would worry about 'that pint of oil in the sump' as, on a single,it'll blow straight out the breather to the rear tyre!

Regards.

Ian.

I think you've got a bit confused there Anna - it's Darren who's got the wet sump problem - not me!

However, as far as wet sumping when running:

Onsingles, oil is sprayed to the rear of the cylinder/piston and its underside bya small drilling in the cylinder boreleading from the pressure relief valve. Like thetwins, when oil is cold and thepressure is high, oil is sprayed, via the valve, over the timing gears and then drains to the sump. As the hole in the relief valve is bigger than both the big end feed jet orifice and the cylinder feed drilling,one can imagine the result if the relief valve seating is damaged, or its spring knackeredor ifdirt is lodged under the ball - especially if the pump is worn on the scavenge side and not living up to its 2:1 ratio.

Finally - I would worry about 'that pint of oil in the sump' as, on a single,it'll blow straight out the breather to the rear tyre!

Regards.

Ian.

Hello It suppose to blow out on too the chain not the tyre ,but the slimline Es2 should have a pipe fitting in the top of the rear chain guard for the breath pipe , next best thing is a catch tank and a pipe to the rear chain from the tank then you can set up a drip feed , yours anna j

Hi Anna.

The ES2 engine has two breathers. One 'timed' breather that runs through the drive side crankshaft exiting just below, behind the primary chaincase (which is often the source of a'leak' that the poor old primary chaincase gets the blame for), the other is a union with a small ball bearing in it that exits at two 'o' clock above the drive side main bearing through a pipe to the gearbox sprocket/rear chain. It's this one which blows out copious amounts of oil -enough to reach the back tyre if the bike is used hard with a poorly scavenging pump.

Like you say, the oil tank has a breather too which hasnever caused me any trouble on my ES2. Unlike my 58 Dommi! I could never have it much more than 1/2" over the minimum line without it blowing oil out. The bike also used to drain its oil into the sump enough to cause problems within two weeks. Then, many years ago, I bought a (Plumstead!!!) Norton manual covering all the twins (you may already have one, I think RGM has them still). In it there are 3 pages devoted to lubrication and the oil pump.I came upon this:-

"An examination of the pump will show that the two end plates are either flush or slightly below the pump body. It follows that if one - or both plates are proud of the pump body after assembly - an air tight joint between the pump and crankcase cannot be made".

I took my pump off straight away and holding a steel rule across the pump, held it upand saw just a thou or two ofdaylight. Once this was corrected, the oil tank breather problem was totally cured, the bike's oildidn't drain into the sumpanywhere near as quick and the improvement acceleration of the bike was quite noticeable now the pump was scavenging properly andthe crankwasn't having to drag oil around in the sump.

Incidentally, readingthe manualnow I see that two reasons they give for 'seepage' are:

'Loose pump bodyscrews' and 'wear in the spindle bores'.

Regards.

Ian.