Removing magneto sprocket

Previously wrote:

Hi, with a full strip down on my 1958 99SS well under way I encountered a problem when trying to remove the sprocket so that I could then take off the very worn chains, well I tried everything, thank goodness I had the service manual handy, I followed the instruction by taking the double pin out from behind the locking nut but alas No movement at all, yesterday after cleaning off the rust from some parts after the engine which had stood for many years idle in somebody's Barn so I was told? I decided to have another go, I got the socket on the nut and wound it as tight as I dared, but no it would not give, I got hold of a blunt chisel and put it on the boss behind the sprocket and bloody hit it with the hammer, what happened, I thought I saw a movement, , yes it had shot back upto the nut, after that I wound the nut out from off the thread and off camre the sprocket with it, JOB done Lads, thats how you remove the Mag sprocket, you see it is fitted onto a tapered shaft and that was why it would not move as it had siezed onto it over the years, the Mag now has gone through the cleaning stage and looks almost new once more. take care fellow Norton lovers.

Hello pat your mag shaft as a double locking thread , Your machine is NOT a 99ss ,but A twin carb Clubman built for export and it should be coil ignition not a Magneto ignition your lighting switch would be a PRS8 , The First (99SS) was Built at the end of March 1961 with standard cylinder head fitted with a twin carburetters by a splayed spacer fitting ! hope this help

Great job Patricia! Job well done! Inregardsto what your bike is (99ss vs clubman) I would humbly request that you check with a known expert in the club. I might suggest going to the "technical" link and go to the "technical advice team" link, look under the heavy twins section & you will find a link to email Dale Middlehurst. I am sure you will get all the correct info there. Keep up the good fight!!

Hi Graham! You can now add ghost writing to your resume I always find it interesting working on old bikes and cars when the subject of originality, or " when was it made" comes into question. Most people feel that whatever "the book" says must me correct, when in fact the factories then (much like now days) will put together machines based on what inventory they have on hand, or what special request a customer may have & the change may not find its way into the records. I had a NC15CS that had some odd bolts on it, one of the factory employees confirmed that the plant ran out of the cad plated bolts, but needed to complete the bike, so they went to the local industrial supply and used what was available.

That is one interesting project! I love unusual models, the more obscure the better, although sometimes you do more research than wrenching if you want it to be as original. Good luck with the project, send in pics as you go along.

Skip Brolund

Errrrr.................(with the greatest respect) has anyoneelsenoticed theframe in the photo of the '1958' Norton-600SS??? Looks like the slimline frame came out two yearsearlier too!?!?

In all seriousness I think it would be worth a second look at the numbers, it's not unknown for them to be poorly stamped (or - if nicked - re-stamped). I long thought my ES2 to be a 1959 model - a 'P' stamped frame -until the records showed it to be a 1960 model with a poorly stamped 'R'. A 1958 Norton would be stamped 'N'. If it is a later bike, which I strongly suspect,it would explain why it is stamped 99SS and has a slimline frame. It would also be worth checking the factory engine, gearbox& forknumbers tally to thecrankcase and frame numbers and to the factory record and registration.

N:B. I also replied to your post regarding these 'SS' models in 'Website Suggestions' regarding my own 195899. As far as I'm aware the early twin carb models were not given an official title by Norton but I've heard them referred to, unofficially,as 'Thruxtons' (by my Dad, who'd had the bike since 1966andalso in the first edition of 'Classic Bike') as well as 'Clubmans' and 'SS'.

Hope this is of help.

Ian.

Previously wrote:

Hi, with a full strip down on my 1958 99SS well under way I encountered a problem when trying to remove the sprocket so that I could then take off the very worn chains, well I tried everything, thank goodness I had the service manual handy, I followed the instruction by taking the double pin out from behind the locking nut but alas No movement at all, yesterday after cleaning off the rust from some parts after the engine which had stood for many years idle in somebody's Barn so I was told? I decided to have another go, I got the socket on the nut and wound it as tight as I dared, but no it would not give, I got hold of a blunt chisel and put it on the boss behind the sprocket and bloody hit it with the hammer, what happened, I thought I saw a movement, , yes it had shot back upto the nut, after that I wound the nut out from off the thread and off camre the sprocket with it, JOB done Lads, thats how you remove the Mag sprocket, you see it is fitted onto a tapered shaft and that was why it would not move as it had siezed onto it over the years, the Mag now has gone through the cleaning stage and looks almost new once more. take care fellow Norton lovers.

Hello Pat I would love to know your engine and frame numbers ? as your frame is a slimline as Far as I know The first Slimline Frame Came Out In September 1959 ,And Paul Dunstall only used the Manx Wideline frame and later a lowboy and then in 1967 a Seeley frame, and in 1958 October of that year Paul Dunstall Was only 19 years Old And Had only just started Racing On a stock Norton Dominator (99) And in 1958 Norton featherbed frames at that time were Wideline , your frame is a slimline frame made at sometime after September 1959 , and the factory records Tell me that the Frist (99SS) engined Machines where Built From Late March 1961 ? So What Is Your Machine ? But IT cannot Be from 1958 having a slimline frame and engine stamped SS , I had a 1961 (99SS) cafe racer tuned by Erick Creaser he made the connecting rods and built the engine , This Machine was one of the Best I have owned

Hello pat As I said early-er We cannot date this machine with out some numbers like the fame and engine numbers the ones that's stamped on the back of the crankcase's and one's at the front where the camshaft end is if you like too email me at annajeannette@btinternet.com , I am the am the East yorkshire branch Secretary .eastyorks.nortonownersclub.org

Then I can tell your more about your machine Hope this May Help Yours Anna J Dixon

from earlier in this post, by its author Graham Booth:

Hi, I beg to differ as it has the SS stamp clearly showing on the drive side crank case, it also has all the hall marks of having been a Paul Dunstall bike as it has many items still intact on the bike from his days, the numbers have been checked out by this club and it left the long bridge works on the 1st of January 1958 to a consortium, yes it does have a coil, the opinion I keep hearing as regards the dates of the SS are incorrect, I owned a 1958 SS and I bought it through Hooleys in Nottingham where I worked at the time, the Norton SS came into being in 1958 and has been conformed by this club, I hope this helps everyone who did not know this, your tech person has now recognised this and sent me an email in recognition of this information which I contacted him with. by the way I am Pats husband who is also a member

Hello Well here we go again .First let me tell you all that Long-bridge works .Is BMC car and lorry Manufactures. And did not build any Norton Motorcycle There at all !, Norton Large twin's and single's ,Where Built At Bracebridge street ,Aston Cross Birmingham .6 , Second Paul Dunstall would not of used a slimline frame for racing ,He used the Manx or Lowboy frame ,And These Frame's Where Wideline, And there is some 50 odd years have gone by and anyone could of stamped any numbers or letters on the frame and engine, But there are numbers on the frame that I can tell you when the frame &engine was built by there are number's But untill I have seen the machine in question ,I will not know, There was no SS models built untill March 1961 ,And that was after the. Norton Manxman 650 was being built. As most of the part came from the Norton Manxman .For the 99SS . And thats fact not fiction .and the Slimline Frame did not come out untill Sepember 1959.And the wideline frame was still being made untill 1960 . So something not right some where ? Hope This Helps

Hi again.

Considering this all started out as a question about a sprocket this has all gone a bit haywire.

Back to basics - As far as Norton SS models go, there were no official SS models in Nortonâs sales literature until 1962 although as Anna says it is generally accepted that the 88SS and 99SS appeared in the spring of 1961. In 1958 & 59 they were referred to by Norton as âModels 88 and 99 with H.C. pistons and Sports Equipmentâ. The 88SS & 99SS (as far as Iâm aware) do not appear in the catalogues until the 1962 issue (I think Nortonâs âyearâ started in September?). This is an excellent site to view these catalogues http://www.motos-anglaises.com/catalogues/Norton/ I would also thoroughly recommend Mick Walkers âNorton Dominatorâ book.

I have no doubt that they were unofficially called SSâs as well as Clubmanâs and Thruxtons by the general public and by the salesmen of the time and this has persisted since in much the same way as a pre-war International âto racing specificationâ is labelled a âManxâ even though this model did not officially exist until after the war. My own 1958 99, according to factory records, was supplied with the âSports Equipmentâ and all numbers, mentioned below, match up. It is also stamped 99C on the rear of the crankcase. This âCâ Iâve heard being attributed to - a stronger crankshaft â and â Competition. Personally, Iâm sure it simply signifies the more mundane âCoilâ ignition as every 58 Dommi Iâve seen since has this stamp! It shows how some âmythsâ abound.

The photo you show is of a slimline framed bike yet you say that its engine and frame numbers show it to be a 58 model.

To sort out the conundrum of your Norton (and please excuse me if some of this is stating âthe bleedinâ obviousâ) I would suggest the following:

If someone wanted to âringâ this bike (for anything from not wanting the bother of informing change of engine or frame number to it having been nicked or parts of it) they would only bother with the engine and frame numbers â not the others mentioned below â it is unlikely that the police or licensing authority would routinely go to the extent of checking factory records.

As far as the numbers are concerned, first check they have been done with imperial sized stamps - not metric - and if there is a â4â in the number it should appear closed like in this 4 not an upside down â7â with a bar vertically through lower horizontal. These are all little signs of something not right.

The Engine. The Engine number should be stamped on the drive side just forward of the Norton badge beneath the barrels. This number should be preceded by âNâ if it is a 58 bike. It should also be stamped with a Shop engine number inside the drive side crankcase just above the main bearing and again on the timing sidejust above the intermediate gear (the one that carries the two chains to the cam and dis/mag. This is different from the âEngineâ number used in registering the bike.

If these two numbers do not tally with the factory record then someone has changed the cases/engine or maybe, the bikeâs identity for some reason possibly erasing the original Engine number and re-stamping it.

Now Iâm not sure if a new spare set of cases sold by Nortonâs wouldâve had Shop numbers stamped on them or not. It is possible the originals have been replaced with a new set of crankcases from the factory and stamped by the owner/mechanic (or by the factory?) possibly including the â99SSâ on the rear. This correlation between the Engine number and Shop number is the most telling as they are both stamped on the same component and cannot be altered simply by replacement i.e. as with the forks or gearbox (see below).

The Frame. The frame number is stamped in a âTâ shaped arrangement on the drive-side gusset plate above the rear brake lever with the year and model number forming the top bar of the T â this should also start with N on a 58 model although being a slimline frame the earliest (indeed only) letter should be âRâ. The frame number should (ideally) match the engine number.

The Fork, Gearbox and Frame numbers do not match each other unlike the frame and engine number. The fork number should be on the lower yoke and the gearbox number on the top of the main shell just behind the inner cover.

Unless the bike is a total âbitzaâ one of these three (Fork, Gearbox & engine Shop) numbers should tally with the Engine/Frame numbers on the factory record. If the fork and the gearbox numbers tally with each other in the factory record but notwith the frame number then it is likely that the frame number has been changed (if a slimline frame stamped with a 58 number isnât evidence enough).

Indeed, if the Gearbox, Fork and, most telling of all, the Engine Shop number do not tally with the Engine and Frame numbers then a further factory records check using the Shop/Fork/Gearbox numbers could well provide evidence of the bikeâs original/real identity. Should the records show a post 61 bike where your Nortonâs shop, gearbox and fork numbers all tally but with different engine, frame and registration numbers then the next move is, as they say, up to you.

Sorry this is so long winded but if it was my bike I'd want to know.

Regards

Ian

Could this be a wind up?

Was the mag sprocket removed without harm?

My 'Modern Motorcyle Maintenance' suggests using a flat bar with 2" or so of the end turned back on itself parallel to and about 1/2" from the rest of the bar (i.e. the handle).

The hook is place behind the sprocket and the handle then sits in contact with the end of the shaft. Tap inwards and the hook pulls the sprocket off outwards by levering the back of the sprocket against the front of the shaft. No chance of damaging the casings.

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Great job Patricia! Job well done! Inregardsto what your bike is (99ss vs clubman) I would humbly request that you check with a known expert in the club. I might suggest going to the "technical" link and go to the "technical advice team" link, look under the heavy twins section & you will find a link to email Dale Middlehurst. I am sure you will get all the correct info there. Keep up the good fight!!

Hi, it is not Pat but Graham who is Pats husband who wrote this, sorry about the fact it puts Patricia, lol, anyway I have been in touch with Dale Middlehurst and he now agree's with me that the SS came out earlier than he had first realised, in fact the first was on the 1st of January 1958 when this bike left the works, he has checked the numbers on the crancase for me that is how I know this information, the crank case shows clearly the factory SS stamp, the numbers tally, this bike was bought by a consortium and has many of Paul Dunstall items still fitted to it when I bought it from down South 3 years ago in a poor state of repair, it is now being fully restored back to racing spec, I hope this information is of some interest to you. Graham Booth

hello I have spoken to Dale over this machine and he says this is all nonsense . no one as said anything to him. and there are no frame number or engine number or better photos of said machine , so to me its a machine made form odd parts. in 1958 sales figure were low. and New machines were just beginning to be worked out Doug Hele and his team were working on experimental engines , Burt Hopwood was busy looking for someone in the Export market. to set up a new export market in the USA .as the only bikes at that time exported in any numbers were the Nomads .some machines could have twin carburettors fitted at the dealers as a option . as for export 88/99s these were painted in Post office red Or Metalscene blue . some were sold as home models in the same colours other machines were in polychromatic grey. or forest green for 1958 as for Slimline Frames the first ones were sold in January 1960.; yours AJD