Numbers query

Bike:

Engine No. E(=1950) 7(=Big4) 32831 These 5 digits are in the correct range for 1950

Frame No. 39544 this is in the range for 1951. You would also expect to see Year & Model code F7 stamped above/beside the frame number, normally on the front petrol tank lug left hand side.

Logbook:

Engine No. 38704   This is also 1951 but does not match the bike.

Frame No. 39544 As you say this part matches the bike. 82/113 is the bore and stroke for a Big4 and would normally appear on the engine, not the frame. F7 is the code for 1951 Big4 which would normally form part of the frame number.

It would seem that 82/113 has been incorrectly recorded in the frame number. I don't know how diificult it will be to get that corrected with DVLA. You may need help from the club dating service. Updating the change of engine number should be easier.

Having had some dealings with the DVLA, I would not recommend informing them that your frame does not match the V5C, they are unlikely to view it as a simple error that can just be corrected, you may find yourself in a procedure which can be tortuous and expensive.

I'd discard the existing V5C and apply for a new age related number.  Keep things simple.

The original bike would have had matching numbers. Perhaps someone copied the engine number complete with the bore size etc, and then wrote it down in both the frame and engine boxes.  Then the engine was changed, so logbook had a new engine number. Then another engine change went unrecorded.

You don't say if the reg mark is the original number, if it is it might be worth speaking to the club dating officer to see if they have had any success helping to change a frame number in the past - a simple space would help yours! but otherwise I’d see if I could get an explanatory letter from the club that explains what has happened and keep it with the V5. I’d also notify a change of engine number. 

Dan

hello,

could you check out the details online concerning the V5c just to see how it looks their end. it may be some type of printing error or the like they have sent you.

barry

Is the frame no in the right place? ( on the front sidecar lug ) and as long as there is no problem with putting the bike on the road I would not bother with the DVLA

If the frame number is not recorded properly on the V5C and at some point you become involved in an incident that requires an insurance claim, then the insurance company will check the bike frame number against the document. If there is a discrepancy they may decide that the bike being ridden is not the same as the bike insured and use that to refuse the claim. Of course this may never happen....

I suspect it may be preferable to get the V5C amended, if that is possible. David's suggestion of applying for a new number sounds like a possible workaround. Technically you would then have one bike with 2 IDs. I guess you would have to declare the bike carrying the current identity either scrapped or permanently on SORN? It could get messy.

Guy, there is something odd about your original post, or I'm being dense...you say that "...the engine number on the bike is the first five digits on the frame number on the log book"

but you state that the engine number on the bike is E7 32831 and that the log book frame number is 39544.

If you've made a typo and all that you're worried about is that the frame number on the bike is 39544 and that the log book shows 3954482/113F7 then I don't think you have a problem because, as Ian explained, this is simply the number followed by bore x stroke and the model and year code. With a couple of spaces, 39544 82x113 F7 makes more sense.

I have an Electra-A Norton Electra (1965) The log book said (a while back) Norton F1****. But we all know that a Norton F1 is valuable and has some woosh. A very tired 350...?? But on checking closely on the frame we see F1 close inspection under the paint layers shows EL........

I contacted DVLA they understood I now own an EL****

If you don't understand then write it out in capitals!!!!

Guy, no need to be hard on yourself. I'm something of a numbers nut...but mostly I'm just referred to as "numb nuts" for short :-)

It probably seems as if at some time, someone has stamped the original engine number on the headstock. Whether this was copied from the engine or from the vehicle documents is impossible to say, but Norton never did this. The bore x stroke marking was applied to the crankcases when the assembled engine went into the store room, to identify it when a Big 4 build was called for. Norton had no reason to stamp this, nor the year letter on the frame until the time of despatch.

The real question here is whether there is a number on the left hand front fuel tank / sidecar mount lug. If it differs, or has been filed or abraded then you've been sold a ringer. The old vehicle world has always been full of dodgy characters, and the ludicrous UK "cherished number" rules of the 1980s and 1990s added "Loadsofmoney" number plate dealers into the mix.

I suppose, with a V5 and a frame, you as a lay-person have to decide on the basis of reasonableness whether you have reason to suppose that the frame and V5 don't belong to each other. It's a difficult thing to advise on.. 90% of these occurrences are down to lazy owners / dealers making a quick buck...but fundamentally, we all hate motorcycle thieves and if a frame number has been altered without reason then there is always the worry of theft at some time in the past.

My recommendation is to phone the NOC Dating Officer and have a word. He will ask for close-up high-res photos of the numbers and then be able to advise you further on what you actually have.

If the numbers on the bike match the V5 then stick with it, if you apply to change the numbers then it will open a can of worms. I know some get lucky but these are the rare cases, most end up having the V5 cancelled. 

Nearly all the calls I deal with are related to bikes bought at auctions, now I wonder why that is. One was long term owned and used bike that had a problem with an new MOT tester at a garage they had used for years - he lost the V5. 

DVLA are getting tougher on these number changes and applications with lack of provenance.