New MoT rules

I have an Easy2 reg XUW238 registered to Gilbert's Motors in Catford London on 11 Jan 1960. Clearly it was made in 1959 unless Norton Motors were so efficient in manufacturing and delivery that they could get a machine to dealers within 11 days, which defies common logic.

I fully expect to have to continue with having the machine (once owned by Alan Shepherd of Norton racing fame which also appears to defy common logic) to be MoT'd as before.

There has to be some sort of cut-off date but now I'm a bit confused as to what that might be?

Does any club member have a fully definitive answer?

Regards,

Peter Bolton

Hey! I remember Gilberts. He was my witness, when some prat pulled out in front of me. Needless to say, he rebuilt the bike. This would have been in early November 1957. John.

If you can prove the bike was manufactured before 1960 you'll be ok. I had the same thing with 2 bikes I have registered in 1973 that were manufactured in 72 for the Historic taxation class. A dating letter confirmed this and there was no problem.

https://www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk/EvlPortalApp/app/enquiry?execution=e1s1 Will show you the year of manufacture and date of first registration. Certainly worth a check for every owner of a historic vehicle. For instance my Land Rover shows year of manufacture as 1952 but date of first registration as 23/11/2009 (it came fron New Zealand), so should be exempt form needing an MoT.

Not strictly relevant to age, but, I have been unable to find anything, on the internet, about the legality of using a vehicle without M.O.T. in Europe. I doubt if the Guardia Civil, in Spain, will be impressed with the argument "We don't need one in the U.K". John.

Hi all,

I suspect that insurers will insist on the vehicle needing an MOT before they'll insure it. My thinking is that this legislation is utterly moronic as there seems to be NOTHING in place to stop a rust bucket (I know of an MGB with holes big enough to get your head in too new I know but a good example) being driven on the highway. OK, the vehicle has to be maintained to MOT standard but part of the problem is that many people see the MOT as a standard to work up to not to maintain or exceed.

It seems that by making something idiot proof the government just employed a better idiot to mess round with the rules without a clue what they were doing. A three year MOT on pre 60 vehicles would have been FAR BETTER. 4500 miles (based on a limited milage of 1500/year) isn't going to cause and majorsafety issues with any classic vehicle looked after correctly.

Jim

DVLA Announcement!

Pre-1960 Vehicles

I am writing to notify you of a change in legislation that may impact a number of your members. From 18 November 2012, vehicles manufactured before 1 January 1960 will become exempt from the requirements to have a mandatory MoT test. I can confirm that these vehicles will still be required to be in a roadworthy condition when used on a public road. Keepers of pre-1960 vehicles will still be able to take a voluntary MoT test at all approved testing stations if they wish to do so.

This means that on or after 18 November 2012, keepers of vehicles who need to tax their pre-1960 vehicle(s) will not need to produce a valid MOT pass certificate when applying for a tax disc. Any application to tax via the Post Office or Local Office will require a completed V112 (Declaration of exemption from MoT testing) where the customer declares that their vehicle is exempt. In addition, the DVLA electronic vehicle licensing system will enable customers with pre-1960 vehicles to tax without a MoT from 18 November 2012.

This exemption will also apply to vehicles where a date of manufacture is not on the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) system, but the date of registration is recorded as being on or before 7 January 1960. We also apply this policy to the qualification criteria for the pre-1973 Vehicle Excise Duty exemption.

Further to Gordon's mail: does this mean that I do not need to change my V5C vehicle class to 'historic vehicle' before I license it? Oddly I only got the new style V5 a couple of months back on change of ownership - but although its date is 1937, they did not re-classify it. Under the old rules it needs to be altered again before I get a free license disc. Annoyingly...

David, if you want to change the vehicle class from unlicenced or bicycle to historic, you need to take the V5, insurance cert and MoT cert to your local DVLA office and they will do it. If you have paid for road tax, they will arrange a refund. Gordon.

Previously wrote:

David, if you want to change the vehicle class from unlicenced or bicycle to historic, you need to take the V5, insurance cert and MoT cert to your local DVLA office and they will do it. If you have paid for road tax, they will arrange a refund. Gordon.

I'm having a problem at the moment regarding the registration document for my 1959 '99'.

The bike has been off the road for over twenty years and is now ready to rock and roll. As the bike was pre-SORN it hasnever had SORN certification,butI made sure I had the last version of the registration document (pre-red) when a number of years ago there was a risk of losing your registration no. if you did not apply for one.

I went to the Post Office to tax the bike a few months ago, but because the registration document did not say it was a historic vehicle when they scanned the bar code they demanded theRFL chargefor a 600cc bike. I was advised to contact the local DVLA office which I did, but they would not change the document or tax the vehicle free of charge. Not very helpful and I do believe that different local offices seem to applytheir ownrules depending on whether they can be bothered or not.

I then contacted DVLA at Swansea as my replacement 'red' registration had not turned up as I was hoping this would read 'historic vehicle'. It seems pre-sorn vehicles are not being issued automatically with 'red' reg. docs, but may be at some future date. They said ifI wanted to have a new reg document immediately I would have to pay a fee of over £30. I am now asking if I get a SORN will I get a red document but have had no answer yet.

Sorry for the long winded scribe, but it might be of use to some of our members.

I recently re-commissioned a 1913 Douglas which had been off the road for many years and was 'Not Licenced' on the V5. The Post Office cannot change taxation classes. The local LVLO taxed it and changed it to Historic class on the spot, no problems. Perhaps the Edinburgh LVLO is more helpful. The V5 should have the date of first registration or date of manufacture to allow Historic classification. Gordon.

Still, no one seems to know if it will be legal, to use a vehicle without M.O.T. certificate, in the rest of Europe. This information may be required, by some, before the next international rally. Surely this is a matter that should be investigated by our E.C. John.

I don't see why the EU authorities would want an MoT certificate - it's EU legislation that pushed the change in the first place. Gordon.

As Gordon says, most of these changes originate at EU level so things should be the same all over europe, however, experiance suggests this is not always the case, just look at the list of things they say you must have in your car before you can legaly drive through the rest ofeurope ! (Always makes me feel we're not realy part of europe )Some clarification on the pre 60 MOT situation would be good, but if you're concerned or uncertain, for the sake of £30 why not just MOT your motorcycle ? That way you'll not only have any legality issues covered, but you'll also have the benefit of a second pair of eyes having given the machine a basic safety check. As the old saying goes, better to have it & not need it than to need it & not have it !

Regards, Tim

Sorry Gordon, I know Scotland is trying for independence, but, it is still part of the U.K. You will have no problems over not having a M.O.T. certificate. Other E.U. countries still have their own laws. In Spain, all vehicles are required to have a valid inspection certificate. The Guardia Civil, Traffico division, tend to interpret the law at their own discretion. If you cannot produce, what they consider to be, the correct papers it is an instant fine! In some cases Brits resident in Spain have been fined for not changing to a Spanish driving licence, although a E.U. photo-card licence is legal throughout all Europe. John.

My 1958 model 500 Inter was built November 1957 and is documented in the factory records. I found and rebuilt it in Y2K. At first despite Neville Hintons authetication of the V765 the local Post Office when I went to (Zero Rate) tax it and the DVLA office in Leeds when I went there for help said I had not proved it was a 1957 machine (this was despite DVLA granting me the original VRM) and that was just for the Historic Vehicle VEL. The asian 'clerk' at both said they had never heard of Norton anything. Bah! However I won they day by dealing with DVLA direct. Not ony is it classed and has been for over a decade as Historic with no argument it is also now exempt from the test. However I did get it tested this year despite it becoming exempt.

There should be no problem if you can prove ORIGINAL date of manufacture regardless of where and when first used on roads here in the UK or elswhere in the world, which you can from the factory records.

Previously wrote:

My 1958 model 500 Inter was built November 1957 and is documented in the factory records. I found and rebuilt it in Y2K. At first despite Neville Hintons authetication of the V765 the local Post Office when I went to (Zero Rate) tax it and the DVLA office in Leeds when I went there for help said I had not proved it was a 1957 machine (this was despite DVLA granting me the original VRM) and that was just for the Historic Vehicle VEL. The asian 'clerk' at both said they had never heard of Norton anything. Bah! However I won they day by dealing with DVLA direct. Not ony is it classed and has been for over a decade as Historic with no argument it is also now exempt from the test. However I did get it tested this year despite it becoming exempt.

There should be no problem if you can prove ORIGINAL date of manufacture regardless of where and when first used on roads here in the UK or elswhere in the world, which you can from the factory records.

I should have added the V5C does state 'Date of First Reg/ in the UK' both as 5/9/2000.

That is in fact incorrect, it was pre DVLA 1974 in December 1957.

A V5C does not show or ask for original date of manufactur and I think that is a flaw in the system. However as above produce factory records to DVLA to match the Engine and Frame numbers.

I don't think that there is any risk of being required to produce an MOT certificate overseas. France and Belgium for instance have never had a technical control for motorcycles and will be quite happy with the registration document. In Belgium, cars only have to have an MOT after four years but I've driven to the UK in a three year old example without expecting to have to justify it.

It might just be that once the procedure has become standardised across Europe, all countries will expect to see the same documentation. The big problem here is that Germany in particular will accept no lowering of what they perceive to be their own uniquely high standards and both the German Government and a number of EU commissioners appear to be in the pockets of DEKRA - the large German organistion behind their testing.

If you haven't come across this sinister organisation, it's worth Googling the name to see the scale of commerical interest that would like to access all European countries in order to perform largely unnecessay tests, preferably with all competition eliminated.

Richard, I have lived in Spain for more than eight years. My bike is still U.K. registered and is (officially) only allowed in Spain for six months each year. I take it back, each year, for tax & MOT. I can assure you that if stopped, for any reason, including routine traffic checks, Spanish police will want to see ALL the vehicle documents (your comment about not requiring a test certificate before a vehicle is four years old is not relevant, we are talking pre 60's here). John.

p.s. It is only the U.K. that obeys all European directives, other countries agree, then ignore them!.

I'm not qualified to comment on the Spanish police. My impression is that most of them have had diffculty coming to terms with the death of Franco.

If you're 'working the system' in terms of residency then you're always going to be vulnerable to local interpretation of all sorts of rules. I had understood that in most European countries, three months was the maximum period before local registration was required in the case of permanent residents.

I believe that my point about new vehicles is relevant. No UK agency could demand an 'MOT' or 'Keuringsbewijs' for a three year old Belgian registered vehicle, even though a UK vehicle of that age must have one.

Belgian NOC members ride all over Europe and I've never once heard of a test certificate being required (it doesn't exist here). The French Senate has rejected the EU call for motorcycle testing only recently. They also have none at the moment. I imagine that large numbers of French motorcycles are used in Spain without difficulty.

No Richard, you are not qualified to comment on the Spanish police, you don't live here. Remarks about Franco would not make you popular, in Spain either. The population is still divided, over the rights& wrongs of their former ruler, and the subject is taboo (like Hitler in Germany).

You seem to know little about residency. Anyone spending more than 123 days a year in Spain is supposed to obtain "Residencia" (although many do not), this does not mean you lose your own national status. There is no legal reason why I cannot own property, and a vehicle in the UK. The "grey area" arises when a foreign vehicle is brought here on a temporary basis.

My "opinion" is that, if the bike is road legal in the UK, including tax & insurance, it is legal anywhere in Europe (subject to time restrictions). However, I do not want my "opinion" proved incorrect by a hefty fine! John.

Previously wrote:

I have an Easy2 reg XUW238 registered to Gilbert's Motors in Catford London on 11 Jan 1960. Clearly it was made in 1959 unless Norton Motors were so efficient in manufacturing and delivery that they could get a machine to dealers within 11 days, which defies common logic.

I fully expect to have to continue with having the machine (once owned by Alan Shepherd of Norton racing fame which also appears to defy common logic) to be MoT'd as before.

There has to be some sort of cut-off date but now I'm a bit confused as to what that might be?

Does any club member have a fully definitive answer?

Regards,

Peter Bolton

Dear Members,

If you submit a form V112, "Declaration of exemption from MoT" with your tax application it will allow the postmaster/mistress to override the requirement for an MoT on the DVLA computer under category "o" on the reverse of the form. I tried to attach the form as part of this note but it is too big in kB size.

I was assured that it would be a very simple process for machines such as mine that were manufactured 1959 but first registered 1960.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Peter Bolton