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Idiot's Guides... take pity on me, please

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Good evening one and all.

I am new here, and new to classic Britishbikes in general, though have had a lot of Jap bikes in my riding life, while I was waiting for something more interesting to come along...!

Well, that has happened and I'm hoping a few of the sages here will take pity on me and guide me through various foibles of old British metal.

I have recently been extremely lucky to"inherit" a 1936 ES2, which has come down to me through the family, and to be honest, I am somewhat perplexed. I have addressed a few of the more obvious and mundane issues, such as dried out fuel tap corks leading to leaks, sludgy oil tank, snapped valve lifter cables and the like but some of the deeper issues are coming across as something akin to alchemy... predominantly carburation and timing.

I have ridden some of my old fella's classic stuff over the years so am au fait with starting the old girl, but she is running very badly, predominantly spitting back through the carb, including small balls of flame, which I found a little alarming at first.

I have a few of the old manuals and have read up a bit on such things, both in the old literature and on the net, and havegleaned from those sourcesthat this is a sign of running weak, though can be down to a whole host of other issues.... a process of elimination required.

I have read up on carburation, needle positions, jet sizes etc, but wanted to begin with timing (is this right?) as I recall the old fella telling me it needed adjusting by a certain number of "degrees"... lost on me back then and now really. I just usd to jump on my Blade, press the button and be off into Wales and The Lakes, with his words going staright over my helmet. Paying little attention to hisutterances is coming back to haunt me now.

I am keen to keep the old girl on the road and use her as much as is possible and kind to her, so will be on here quite a bit...

In the inital stages, would anyone be able to point me to an idiots guide to adjusting timing, setting points etc., either on the NOC website or anywhere out in cyberspace... preferably illustrated and relating to a large single....?

Many thanks in advance, and please go easy on me!

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just as a quick follow up to the comments on weak mixture, the pilot jet screw is all the way in, and the needle is at it's highest position, and am still getting the popping through the carb...

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Soungs like the fuel is not getting through.I would not change any of the settings as its most likely they are all ok !!.check the tank cap breathing and fuel flow ,possibility of blocked filter or pilot jet or carb passages. Changing settings before checking the basics will get you into nomans land.

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You're certainly in at the deep end Roger, starting off with a non-runner. If the timing hasn't been fiddled with then it shouldn't have altered since it was last used. There is also a range of adjustment on the handlebar control.

It's worth checking if you have a tight wire or slack wire advance.

If you insert a thin feeler (or the proverbial fag paper) between the points and rotate the engine via the rear wheel, you can then measure the distance before TDC at which the feeler comes loose. It will at least let you know if yours has slipped by miles.

To be honest, if the pilot air screw is having no effect and needle is raied as far as it will go then I'd suspect a blocked carb drilling. The pilot fuel drillings are very small and to check them thoroughly, you'll need to remove the jet block. The mixing chamber needs heating by immersing in boiling water and the block should then push out from the top. Do you have the Type 76 with pilot air drillings around the mixing chamber or has it been replaced ?

The fuel for the pilot mixture is drawn through a drilling in front of the main jet but then has to pass through a tiny drilling on the engine side of the block before being fed into the inlet tract. If this drilling is blocked, it will give the symptoms that you describe.

If you're stuck, I can post some photos.

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Take a good look at your carburator first of all,there is one ortwoVERY small holes above the pilot jet screw when you look inside the carb from the engine end.Clean this with a little sticker and blove through with air.This holes is normaly blocked if the bike have been standing for a while.This is very importent to the tickover.The needle high is more importent when the revs rises.Hope this is for help.

Best regards from Svein.

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Thank you all for the very speedy replies. I will take the carb off tomorrow evening and post some photos to show you what the situation is, also so you can point me in the right areas.

I kind of think there can'tbe TOO much wrong if I can actually get the thing to start, but as Svein implies, she won't tick over at all.

The spluttering tends to be most prevalent at say quarter throttle and clears when revved higher, then pops again as the revs subside. Runs better with air lever closed too.

Robert, thanks or first reply! I think fuel is flowing pretty well from the tank, as when i tickle the float chamber i am getting good flow, so it may be a blockage further into the bowels of the carb as most of you have alluded.

Richard, thanks for your input. I will take a good look tomorrow evening and report back. Pretty sure it is tight wire advance (that's when lever is pulled back from bars almost to 90 degrees to them?) as the engine speed increases when I do that.

It does maybe sound like a pinprick blockage as there was a lot of crud in the tank and the filter gauzes were pretty muddied up when i removed them to clean everything, so it might be something has moved down the lines.

On the question of fuel and taps... there are two of them obviously -should they both be on for normal running or is one a reserve tap... the one set further back in the tank perhaps?

Anyway, photos to follow tomorrow and thanks for your initial thoughts. Itching to get her on the road!

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I'm assuming these are the two small holes to which you have been referring, one just inside the mouth of the carb passing through the body of the carb where the pilot screw locates, and the other by the main jet I think? Is this right?

I ahve given them a clean out but I'm planning on taking the entire carb body and block to work where I can ultrasonically clean them to remove any crud.

Attachments Photo0126.jpg
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and finally a couple of others showing drillings in fittings to float chamber and bottom of carb... not the technical terms I'm sure, but just to see if these are how they should be with a view to flow of fuel.

Okay gentleman... please add your comments and suggestions, if only to confirm what you said yesterday evening... thanks once again.

Roger

Attachments Photo0128.jpg
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Yes, Roger. Those are the bits. It looks like the original Type 76. If you blow through the various orifices after cleaning, it's fairly obvious what goes where, but the tiny opening in the larger boring on the front edge of the block is critical to the pilot mixture. The jet block is actually soldered out of three parts so there is more to it internally than shows at first glance.

I see that your carb is fitted with a 'short' mixing chamber nut. I 'thought' (always dangerous) that these short nuts were typically fitted to side valves which need a rich mixture to aid the pick-up and that OHV engines generally had the longer nut. The presence of the short nut might suggest that a previous owner had substituted components in an attempt to cure weakness which might mean that he failed to get the jets clear or that other parts are incorrect.

It might be worth noting down the carb body number, slide cutaway and jet block number (It should be stamped '30' I believe).

There is something slightly odd about the shoulder inside the carb stub too. Is it damaged and causing an air leak or does it clamp up properly ?

Something to bear in mind with machines of this period, if the contemporary weeklies are to be believed is that many owners who were allowed fuel rations during the wartime or postwar period went to great lengths to obtain a few extra miles per gallon. If yours has ended up with a carb that has been 'adjusted' with this in mind then there could be several causes.

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Thanks Richard.

I have justhad the various components ultrasoncially cleaned here at work (one of the perks of the otherwise drab job...), so everything should be nice and clear now.

Will give it all a try when i get back.

The shoulder you mentioned seems fine, by the way, it looks like a trick of the light in the photo i attached, as there appears to be no damage to it in reality.

I'll note the all the number details too, for future reference.

If indeed the short nut has been used in an attempt to cure the weakness, what would be the next step, should the sputtering and backfiring through the carb still be occurring? Would you suggest a still concentrating on the carb internals, a different sized main jet, for example, or lookign at something else?

mant thanks again

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As a general question, is the air lever something that needs constant adjustment during riding on this era of bike, akin to the advance/retard lever? Or is it something used purely as a choke mechanism?

Like I say, the bike runs better with the air lever some degree closed, obviously making it run a little richer, but I would imagine it's not good form to have it running that way, with the lever closed, and is better to have the stock setting right in the first instance.

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The air lever is normal used only when the engine is cold as a chokeand fully open under riding.

Set the pilot air screw about 1 1/4 turn open from bottom as a beginning.Adjust veryslowly when the engine is hot to the best tickover.Adjust also the throttle stop screw for best idling together with the pilot air screw.

Pilot air screw is mostfor starting and idling and a little for next step,the cutaway

Throttle cutaway is for the"take of" from idling. Lesser cutaway will give richer mixture from tickover.

Needle position is next step (about from one quart to three quart throttle).About normal riding.

Main jet size is for full throttle.

Excuse my bad english!

Good luck from Svein.Single is best!!!!!!!!!

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Tack sÃ? jÃ?ttemycket fÃ?r hjÃ?lpen, Svein. Spelar ingen roll att ni tycker att er engelsk Ã?r dÃ?ligâ? den Ã?r det vÃ?l inte.

Ãr ni norsk fÃ?rresten?

Roger

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Okay, so I've refitted the carb, and run the bike. Seems a little better, picks up better, but still fires back, more through the exhaust than through the carb now, but with occasional flames through the carb mouth and some flames from the exhaust...

This seems to occur when shutting off from an open throttle of say 75%.... any further diagnoses in light of these symptoms?

Pilot screw still all the way in, when this is happening by the way. Should I be thinking of backing it off as Svein suggests?

Really seems very hit and miss at the minute... taking into account adjustments on adv/ret lever. Should I have that at a fixed position to check any adjustment in the carb?

Utterly clueless....

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The advance retard lever is only for starting the engine or climbing very steep hills. The timing should be set so it is correct at fully advanced on the lever, the lever is then used to retard the timing so the engine has less chance of kicking you back when starting it.

I am wondering about leaks in the exhaust causing the explosions in the exhaust. Another test which might be worth trying is to apply compressed air to the sparking plug hole with the valves closed. You might then be able to tell by listening at the carb and exhaust if there are any valve leaks.

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If it were mine, I'd prefer to get the carburation sorted and use the long nut, as original. A higher fuel level can't improve economy and you still seem to be running lean if it prefers choke.

Is the main jet definitely marked '106' and not '160' ? It should be a 160. Body was 76/022 (1 1/16" bore) 6/4 slide and 64/069 float chamber. Do any of those markings tie in ?

Is the slide or body badly worn ? Air leaks round a rattling slide wouldn't help. These carbs are no longer available but someone like Martyn Bratby can sleeve and recondition as new.

The easiest thing, if you can find a member close, would be to try borrowing a suitable carb and substituting.

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Hei Roger,ja visst er jeg norsk og det ser ut for at du kan bra svensk?

HÃ?per du fÃ?r i orden Nortonen,det er trivelige sykler. Har hatt forskjellige sykler men jeg faller tilbake til Norton single da det gjelder trivsel.(1955 19S og 1926 M18).

Det kan vÃ?re at du burde slipe venilene nÃ?r det gjelder "skytingen",men hvis det er lekkasje i eksosanlegget kan det ogsÃ? fÃ?re til skyting den veien nÃ?r du slÃ?r av gassen og hvis den er pÃ? sen tenning.

Nortonhilsner fra Svein.

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Thanks for all the advice gentlemen. I will be giving the bike my full attention this weekend, and will report back with my findings and hopefully some success!

Roger

 


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