Electronic ignition experience

Greetings from South Australia,

I can only concur with Stewart regarding theTri-Spark units. I have had one on my Commando for over two years (removed really old Boyer due to heavy current draw and poor starting) and even with 40 +degree Centigrade summer days here, no problems or temperature issues. Also after weeks of 'non use,' she starts first or second kick.

RgdsSteve

I originally had a Boyer Mk 3 set-up on my Commando. It was 100% reliable to the point that I always did very well in 'kick-start' competitions at various rallies. However, one day,while riding to a Begonia Rally,a shorting horn lead took out the Igniton Module. The only replacement I could get at short notice was a Pazon.

The first big disappointment, with this purchase, was the lack of hardware for the £130 that I handed over. No coil(s) were included, with the deal, and very little else rattled about inside the box. The most annoying issue, that arose, was the lack of spare connectors. My old Boyer had spade connectors on its wires. The pazon came with solderless bullets. But only just enough for the kit in the box. There were no spares to allow for any mistakes such as dropping one in the dark or crunching one to death when assembling the wiring. Plus you really needed to have one of those special pliers that fixes solderless bullets to wires.

In the end I had to use a couple of open connector blocks to join up some of the wiring and hide it away under the tank to keep it away from the weather. Pazon could easily had included a few pence worth of extra spade and bullet connectors, in their box. Mean Sods!!!

The Pros and Cons........the set-up instructions would test the ability of anyone. They are far too wordy and mostly a waste of time reading. The pick-up plate and trigger sensor were easy to fit but attaching the 2 sender wire ends inreverse was also too easy. This may have been Stewart's problem. The timing plate appeared to have the same crap terminal mounting block, for the Ignition Module wires, that the old Boyer had. And sure enough, when I checked it out 3000 miles down the road, vibrating had shaken the wires to the point where one connection was about to part company. There is a small tie band included in the deal, to hold the ends to the plate but you need the dexterity of a surgeon rejoining nerve ends to get it to fit and work.

The next big disappointment was the starting procedure. The damn engine always kicked back. Even when the timing was strobed to the recommended point and then further retarded some more the engine continued to kick back until one day it took out the gearbox pawl.

The good news.....the unit does work down to 8 volts of battery power. I proved this by riding from Guildford back to Portsmouth after the alternator had died.

Would I purchase another Pazon? NO!

One electronic ignition system, not mentioned in Roadholder, is the Thorspark, supplied by Sussex Motorcycles. This unit is for magnetos only. The mag does not have to be removed, the points are replaced by a trigger unit, and the could can be hidden under the seat (in the toolbox with a Dominator). The kit comes complete with coils, wiring,, and instructions, and is available for 6 or 12 volt systems. The only time my bike has not started at the first kick, in the past three years, was due to a flat battery.

The Pazon like the Boyers has a sleep function to protect the coils so after a few sec of not receiving a signal from the magnets it turns itself off. The boyer awakes on reciving the next signal as the engine is kicked over but the Pazaon aditionally waits for 2 signals to check that the engine is running over 200rpm. On a B50 I saw a pazon installed on this mean't it would not start on a kick only on a bumpstart. The unit was replaced with a special longer wait unit but the normal units are unchanged, I suspect this is the issue that Stewart found but the effect would be less on a twin than on a single as the cyclinder firings are closer together.

I've only ever used Boyer, the one in my Mk 3 Commando was fitted in 1989 and as long as the battery is good, starting isn't an issue.

Since then I have stuck with Boyer on singles and twins, using the mag replacement type. Fitted in conjunction with a Boyer power box can start an engine without battery and a blown main fuse.

Boyer works for me. British parts for British bikes.

The more I read, the more I love my K2F! Was out on a run yesterday. No problem starting despite -1 degrees and standing for weeks. Sheet ice and generous gritting depending on the road. A great outing and never missed a beat. This magneto has been on the bike at least 30 yearssince last overhaul. They're not all bad.

Good on you Gordon!, I plan to swap the points on my 18d2 for an electronic trigger today ,and hope to get out later. Before the rain hits.

Fitted a Powerspark unit into the 18D2 dissy, had to slim down the end of the rotor arm to allow it to snug up into the recess in the powespark rotor,file a touch off the rotor arm end to get clearance for the cap to sit down and make up a grommet to seal the cable into the cap recess. Will now have to strobe the ignition in future,Can't use fag paper and pencil in the hole anymore. Progress??.

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Fitted a Powerspark unit into the 18D2 dissy, had to slim down the end of the rotor arm to allow it to snug up into the recess in the powespark rotor,file a touch off the rotor arm end to get clearance for the cap to sit down and make up a grommet to seal the cable into the cap recess. Will now have to strobe the ignition in future,Can't use fag paper and pencil in the hole anymore. Progress??.

On the other hand, once set up, no points to adjust, no maintenance needed until a major overhaul.

I read with interest the recent articles, mainly Rh 314, on the various ignition systems available to us these days and I would like to pass on my experience with my `66 650SS. I initially bought the bike with the view of restoring it to it`s former glory as it was in a shabby condition. I found the magneto was no exception, so I looked for a viable alternative, at the same time rebuilding the whole bike totally, down to the last nut and bolt.

After trawling the magazines available, websites etc, I decided to use the Pazon unit. It looked like it had all the necessary I was after.

I duly fitted it, following the instructions"to the letter" but the end result was not what I was expecting. Kickstarting it was a"hit or miss" affair, most of the time it would backfire through the carbs and come close to injuring me. It would start and run OK if I bumpstarted it,( yes that`s handy isn`t it? ) but kick it? No chance.

I spent the next couple of months rechecking EVERYTHING. Timing, battery,earths,connections etc. I even sent it back to the manufacturer for him to recheck and he told me he could not fault it and sent it back.

After more attempts at getting it sorted ending in failure I decided to, in my frustration, to cut my losses and tried a different brand, namely Tri Spark. It took me a couple of hours to fit and it started second kick!

All of the problems I had with it have gone. It has turned into a one kick wonder. Starts and runs really well.

I have spent the last 40 years working as a motor engineer so I feel I am qualified to comment and did everything in my power to get that system working. My conclusion is that it was not producing enough voltage at kickstart speed. I am not saying that Pazon is a bad system, it just did not work for me.

Stewart Denton-Giles

Hello now the 1966 Dominator 650Sport Special was fitted with a Lucas K2FC magneto witch is far better than any electroic device, a good Magneto will last you years and give no trouble , and if you battreys down you still get home as your magneto are relieable if you know how to look after it, and Best spark plugs bar None forget NGK junk, Buy Bosch W7DTC for a shure start evey time, I been running my 1960 650 Manxman on a set for 3 years and not even toched them yet, start easy even after a months lay ups , have fun yours Anna J

Fired up the 99 with the Powerspark electronic trigger in the 18d2 distributor. Without re-timing its clear that the timing is very advanced. Untill i get the time to strip off the primary case and set up some strobe marks on the alternator i'll just back off the disributor till it stops kicking back.Does anyone know what the 18d2 advance range is?, Std timing is 32 degrees fully advanced,I'm interested in what the fully retarded figure.is.If i was running on E10 (which is not yet Here!) i would expect to back off the timing a degee or two as i hear the stuff burns faster,Just planning for what may be unavoidable.

Factory ignition timing for the 99 dominator is Full Advance 32 deg. BTDC, Fully retarded, 8 deg. BTDC. Modern fuels may need slightly different settings, but these are astarting point.

As I'm doing it by feel only I would expect no kickback at 8 degrees ,or at least only a very feeble one!, Once I get to set it properly I'll let you know how far off I am. Bet its only 1 or 2 degrees.

As I'm doing it by feel only I would expect no kickback at 8 degrees ,or at least only a very feeble one!, Once I get to set it properly I'll let you know how far off I am. Bet its only 1 or 2 degrees.

the only

all the time

yours Anna j

You can run without a battery or with a duff battery and even a blown main fuse if you use a Boyer power box!

As for fuel, stick to BP Ultimate in the UK and many other countries, though sadly not in the SW of England. How long for? If choice was still a courtesyI wouldn't be worrying about it...

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Fired up the 99 with the Powerspark electronic trigger in the 18d2 distributor. Without re-timing its clear that the timing is very advanced. Untill i get the time to strip off the primary case and set up some strobe marks on the alternator i'll just back off the disributor till it stops kicking back.Does anyone know what the 18d2 advance range is?, Std timing is 32 degrees fully advanced,I'm interested in what the fully retarded figure.is.If i was running on E10 (which is not yet Here!) i would expect to back off the timing a degee or two as i hear the stuff burns faster,Just planning for what may be unavoidable.

Are you sure that you did not lock the centrifugal advance /retard mechanism on full advance when you replaced the points/ capacitor base plate with the new unit. You can check this by taking off the distributor cap and turning the rotor arm. It should move through 12 deg. as the distributor runs at 1/2 crankshaft speed and the centrifugal advance is 24 deg.

Worth a check in view of severe kick back.

Many years ago (when i converted to 12V) I fitted a 2MC cap as fitted to later 650's .This allows starting with a flat battery or even no battery.I'm thinking now i have to take off the primary to time it, might as well work on improving the clutch which is on the edge of slipping. I'll fit a radial bearing to the pressure plate and a seal to the pushrod along with a change to ATF . A look at the 1959 alternator too.

Thanks David, this explains why my battery was knackered after a 70 mile run with a blown main fuse.(All the way home, mostly in the dark)

Put a new gel battery in a couple of years ago but now I'm finding the electronic Smiths rev counter is soaking up charge when left standing. Not an issue as long as the Boyer power box is in order of course.

After 54 years of service from the much maligned old dissy I now have powerspark technology, For at least a few seconds!. No spark at all. Tried everything , Hotwiring out the switches and loom, bypassing the dissy cap, etc,etc.I notice that the Ampmeter flicks when the motor is kicked over, But you can't get it to show a steady discharge like the points system would, so how does the coil saturate?. I'm wondering if I've been supplied with a Neg earth unit by mistake. Thinking of going onto a more reliable system, POINTS!.

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

As I'm doing it by feel only I would expect no kickback at 8 degrees ,or at least only a very feeble one!, Once I get to set it properly I'll let you know how far off I am. Bet its only 1 or 2 degrees.

Its 8 degrees retarted thats the point open by then, but your doing by these fancy electronic igntion then its a red light comes on , as its retarted

the only

thing wrong with electronic igntion is your relying on the battery !

all the time

yours Anna j

Not all electronic ignitions need batterys. The new type BT-H has it's own rotating magnet (not armature like the original sily idea) generator and built in ad/retard for easy non kickback starting. Yes they are expensive but are produced in smaller numbers than other electronic units that all require batteries.

I like my old bikes but things have moved on and some modern componants do enhance the performance and cut down fiddling time so you can enjoy more miles in the saddle.

But surely everything that came out of Bracebridge Street was absolutely perfect! That must be the case as so many are obsessed with returning their bikes to factory standard and they can't all be wrong, can they?

Previously Gordon Johnston wrote:

But surely everything that came out of Bracebridge Street was absolutely perfect! That must be the case as so many are obsessed with returning their bikes to factory standard and they can't all be wrong, can they?

Gordon, your so right, I shall be looking for the correct 1960 air for the tyres and some old 1960 oil to go with it and maybe a nice miss firing magnet and maybe some skidmaster tyres to. All original eh

We are naughty boys happy 2015 riding

Not wishing to be an old skeptik ,I am still strugling with the powerspark unit. I get one spark---a violent kickback and then nothing.Tried a tested spare unit --same result . To relieve the frustration went to fix in-laws modern car, Spent an hour laying on back with head on road to change HL bulb,and looked for ages for non existant spare wheel,ain't progress grand!.GRRRRRRRRR.

Are you using the correct suppressed HT leads as unsuppressed copper HT leads will cause a premature failure with the ignition kit. Also you must use a coil with resistance above 1.5 ohms only

Hi Charles, The Powerspark is a replacement for points magnetic trigger that fits inside the dissy and uses all the other orriginal items except needs no capacitor . I don't think coil/lead spec's are important,but I will ask.Will be checking coil -o- today .Just realised I re-assembled clutch without greasing pushrod and washed plates in parafin,---not clever.The Ignition timing will be non standard as I have std 650 ss pistons, ( 9 to 1? but designed for longer stroke so who knows?). PS the coil resistance is 1.5 ohms but apparently this needs to be 3 ohms for a powerspark system to work?. PS JH said the 650 pistons give 8.25 cr in the 99 ,so std timing OK.

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Hi Charles, The Powerspark is a replacement for points magnetic trigger that fits inside the dissy and uses all the other orriginal items except needs no capacitor . I don't think coil/lead spec's are important,but I will ask.Will be checking coil -o- today .Just realised I re-assembled clutch without greasing pushrod and washed plates in parafin,---not clever.The Ignition timing will be non standard as I have std 650 ss pistons, ( 9 to 1? but designed for longer stroke so who knows?).

Just to add to the confusion, just before christmasi was on with wiring my 650cc mercury that came with a mk4 boyer in with the old wiring, i was happily wiring the bike and using an old battery to check the lighting circuits etc as i wentalong,i wired the ignition and was chuffed at getting two big fat sparks as i primed the engine oil through so i fitted a pipe with petrol and gave her a kick, a quick hobble about the workshop from the kickback and retired for christmas.. i read up from the notes on here and was chuffed to read that this can happen without a fully charged battery as i was pretty sure i had timed it ok , i checked the battery which had only 11.5 volts. i am just going to get back on the job and was reading this thread with interest as i had replaced the ht leads with copper cored ones, is this wrong?i also replaced the plug caps i think these should also be resistor ones from what i am reading is that correct? hoping to get back on the bike this week so confirmation will help as i check through the wiring again before hopefully starting the bike.ps it says commando on the mk4 boyer box that is second hand.thanks Arthur

After loads of time wasted I have re-fitted the points, At least if there is a problem its easy to put right . If I can put together a test rig off the machine I will look at it again sometime. (maybe never!). My 99 has the orriginal copper wire core leads but I have replaced the KLG resistor caps(which measured infinity !) with non resistor NGK caps .Best to use resistor plugs as these are easy to replace. Dinasour machine for Old fossil rider.But it did start first kick after 4 months layoff. I'm re-fitting the 3 start pump gears which i hope will stop over-oiling and oil finding its way into the dissy.