Cylinder head problems 600 1959

Previously wrote:

Hi,

My friend bought a 1959 Dominator 600 in England 2 months ago, this bike has been completely restored by the seller, now after 120 miles running, there was a great noise in the engine and a lack of power.

I dismanteled the cylinder head and all the 4 push rods are worn in the rockers, these push rods was manufactured completely in aliminium (forged?) and for me are not origonal pattern for this engine, and I think these was also too long.

Now I found an other problem: one inlet rocker axle is badly worn in the inner part of the head, ther was 0,15 play, please can anyone give me tips what I can do to resolve this problem ?

Sorry for my english, I try to do my best, I live in Belgium and restore classic bitish motorcycles.

Karl.

Hello karl theres only two ways you can go with this and one it to have the cylinder head welded where the spindels holes are and machined down to fit , or have a bronze bush made up too fit after machining the spindel holes , it all up too you now! yours AJD

Probably easier and cheaper to buy another cylinder head. I had a rocker bush break off on mine years ago. It was then a trip to the local dismantler on one cylinder to buy another cylinder head. Much cheaper and easier than trying to repair the original.

The all Aluminium Push Rods will not usually run properly inmost Norton engines built before1961. They are generally too fat for the Push Rod tunnels.As a result of this theywillknock against each other and the rocker ends can jump out of the cups at the end of the rods.

Also, the early Dominator engines had a poor oil feed to the Cylinder Head. This can lead to the pushrod ends running dry for a while which makes them wear very quickly.

You need to changeyour Push Rods for the correct set which have the narrow, parallel, 7mm thickshafts. Please be careful when you buy your next set of Push Rods as there are many different sizes available to fit the 88,99,650 and 750 engines.

I have attached an informationsheet showing the different lengths.

Anna is quite rightthat you will probably needto havesome serious engineering done to properly fix your loose rocker spindle. However, I have met several owners who have successfully used a specialhard setting pastesuch as Chemical Metal or JB Weld to hold the spindle firmly inside the inner mounting. These modern filler pastesare quite amazing as they stick to metal, set quickly and can be drilled and shaped to size. More good news is that they usually cost less than 10 euros for a standard size tube.

hi i agree with phil as i have used the cemical metal fillers quitea lot even to repaiv a cracked head on a disel tipper as a tepery mesher althou it is still going strong 6 years later you will just have to be very acuret when you set up the rocker spindel so good luck

Totally off topic, but i saw a Norton Manxman for sale in this months OBMwith wanting offers of over£10000 for it and the address as East Yorkshire. Is Anna Dixon selling her Manxman?

Previously wrote:

Totally off topic, but i saw a Norton Manxman for sale in this months OBMwith wanting offers of over£10000 for it and the address as East Yorkshire. Is Anna Dixon selling her Manxman?

Hello Anthony I am Not selling My bike For 10K thanks But If you want one Just Give Me a call on the dog and bone , as I know where there is 3 machines for sale , As for the one in East Yorkshire It will be the one , Rebuilt By Norvil Motorcycles , painted the wrong Colour a darker blue and orange seat , My one as the right Colour and the right colour seat , with the white piping round witch is right , I have photos off 3 original Machines and all of them have the white piping round the seat , Despite Mike Bell of worldvista . saying that they had all red seats and no white piping round the seat , And He as restored the Manxman for the NMM In the wrong blue , and the machine as the wrong silencers on as well , And The Name Manxman was give too Export 650cc Machines only , and all machine sold in this country where stamped SS , or some other stamp mark , the Manxman's where stamp marked 65 0r 65c for custom machines , not coil ignition as some may of thought, All Norton Manxmans where fitted with Lucas Magnetos K2FC, and twin carburetters and with special inlet sleeves in the inlet spacers , this gave the machine the extra 3 BHP to make 52bhp on Tap, and a top speed of 120 mph The right hand side exhaust pipe is shaped to miss the rev counter drive cable , Something not put down in the write up in the History of models , on the The Norton Owners Club web site ,To my register I have 28 machines in the world to to date , and 1 in The Philippines , and two dead machines just some parts found , If any one as more information on these Machines Please Let me know, We do know about the Silencers, These where made in house at Bracebridge street factory . and very hard to find now ,but there are out there somewhere, Yours Anna J Dixon

Previously wrote:

Probably easier and cheaper to buy another cylinder head. I had a rocker bush break off on mine years ago. It was then a trip to the local dismantler on one cylinder to buy another cylinder head. Much cheaper and easier than trying to repair the original.

Hello Well Cylinder head prices at £650 , On Ebay ,I think its Cheaper to have it Alloy welded and re-machined , Alloy welding its £4 per inch , re-machining is by the hourly rate just depends on where you take it, you just have too pick the phone up and shop around and get the best job at the best price, Yours AJD

hi karl . ive got the very same problem with my rocker spindles . ive fitted end plates that have grub screws in them . they push the spindle against the inner part of the head and lock it in place so that it doesnt rotate and block the oilway. i allso put a bit of locktight on the inner part of spindle. you can get this item from RGM the part number is 067579m . im sorry that i cant give you any feedback on product as i havnt started engine yet . i hope this is of some help its a cheap fix if it works .

There is a cylinder head on eBay for £100 buy it now even as I type. The 1959 heads are pretty common, so should be no problem picking one up. Norvil have one for £275 needing new valve seats, but I do find that Norvil aren't cheap for used items - they sell recon magnetos for £600. I paid £270 for a reconditioned guaranteed one at the end of last year. You get the idea. There is another head fully reconditioned for £145. So probably cheaper to buy a used one I think (except from Norvil).

Assuming the engineer does a good job of making the bushings, there should be no need to replace the cylinder head. The rocker shafts do not turn in the head, so there should be no wear taking place. I am wondering how the holes became oversize? Rocker seized to shaft due to lack of oil?

You do know that if shafts and head are correctly sized, it is necessary to heat the head to remove the shafts? A slide hammer is used to get the shafts out once the head is hot, a cooking oven will do a good job at heating the head, but wait 'til your wife is out for the day!

Colin.

Previously wrote:

thanks for your good advise, now I have found one engineer her in my country he arrange two bronze bushes in my head, It will be good for this season and in winter I find a new head.

Cheers

Karl.

Hi Colin,

I too had loose rocker shafts on my '57 M77. I was told this is common on the earlier aluminum heads, as they used the same size hole as the iron heads, not allowing for the greater expansion rate of the aluminum, thus when the aluminum head got hot, the rocker shafts got loose, & wore the holes in the head .

Skip Brolund

Previously wrote:

Hi, This head comes from the bike of a friend he has purchased this bike 2 month ago in UK as completely restored bike !!!

Now the rocker axle bushes are in place and all seems to be OK... but I dismantled the valves and must see that they are wrong, the inlet valves are in place of the exhaust valves and the exhaust are in the inlet !!!!

One valve guide is worn in the head.

I ask what has they restored in the engine ???? very bad work indeed.

Karl.

Sadly, Karl, this is not uncommon with so-called restored bikes. Often, a great deal of time, money and effort goes into the cycle parts, the paintwork and the shiny bits, with little if anything done to the engine, gearbox etc. - and that which is done is frequently bodged or done plain wrong, as you are now discovering. Don't ask me how I know all this...

When you say that the valve guide is worn in the head, do you mean that the valve is loose in the guide, or the guide is loose in the head? In either case, the guide will need replacing, but if the guide is loose in the head, then you will definitely need an oversize guide, and may need to ream the head to suit. It is most important to remove any carbon from a valve guide before removing it from the head, since carbon will score the head and allow oil to seep between the guide and the head causing smokey exhaust. Remember to heat the head before removing or fitting valve guides. The valve seat will need to be re-cut if a guide is replaced.

When I hear of overseas enthusiasts being ripped - off it makes me want to apologies to them on behalf of the decent rest of us. We should start a Rogue Trader section where the guilty are named and shamed. Apologies for going off topic, Chris.

Better to buy a well-used and travel-stained example than a 'restored' one. So many so-called restorers only do the paintwork and polishing and have no mechanical knowledge. My son worked for one of the Classic Motorcycle magazines for a while and NEVER had a satisfactory bike to road test. All had faults and some were positively dangerous. All were nice and shiny though.

Better to buy a well-used and travel-stained example than a 'restored' one. So many so-called restorers only do the paintwork and polishing and have no mechanical knowledge. My son worked for one of the Classic Motorcycle magazines for a while and NEVER had a satisfactory bike to road test. All had faults and some were positively dangerous. All were nice and shiny though.

Karl, did your friend buy the bike from a dealer or from a private seller? If it came from a dealer he may have legal recourse under English law as, I believe I am right in saying, all motor traders are legally obliged to provide a three-month warranty on vehicles sold and your friend may well have an action based on the bike being 'not fit for purpose'. Might be worth considering before too much more time passes.

Previously wrote:

When I hear of overseas enthusiasts being ripped - off it makes me want to apologies to them on behalf of the decent rest of us. We should start a Rogue Trader section where the guilty are named and shamed. Apologies for going off topic, Chris.

That's a good idea Chris but there is always a risk of being sued! There seems to be a cartel of over-pricing going on. Even the 'big' suppliers continually over charge on a range of parts. Hopefully over a period of time the NOC spares side can build up and cut them out particularly on the more expensive spares. Would our members be willing to pay a higher membership fee for moreclub spares availabilty - perhaps.

Harry

Previously wrote:

When I hear of overseas enthusiasts being ripped - off it makes me want to apologies to them on behalf of the decent rest of us. We should start a Rogue Trader section where the guilty are named and shamed. Apologies for going off topic, Chris.

That's a good idea Chris but there is always a risk of being sued! There seems to be a cartel of over-pricing going on. Even the 'big' suppliers continually over charge on a range of parts. Hopefully over a period of time the NOC spares side can build up and cut them out particularly on the more expensive spares. Would our members be willing to pay a higher membership fee for moreclub spares availabilty - perhaps.

Harry

Previously wrote:

Hi, This head comes from the bike of a friend he has purchased this bike 2 month ago in UK as completely restored bike !!!

Now the rocker axle bushes are in place and all seems to be OK... but I dismantled the valves and must see that they are wrong, the inlet valves are in place of the exhaust valves and the exhaust are in the inlet !!!!

One valve guide is worn in the head.

I ask what has they restored in the engine ???? very bad work indeed.

Karl.

Previously wrote:

Assuming the engineer does a good job of making the bushings, there should be no need to replace the cylinder head. The rocker shafts do not turn in the head, so there should be no wear taking place. I am wondering how the holes became oversize? Rocker seized to shaft due to lack of oil?

Hello how do you work this out , the inlet valves are bigger than the exhaust valves , so the exhaust valve will not fit right in the inlet seats ,and vice verser .it sound like some one did not know what they where doing and I would it this point take the engine out a strip the hole lot and see what else has been fitted wrongly , and then rebuild the engine back methodically, yours Anna J Dixon

It sounds like this was a standard 1959 Dommie head where inlet & exhaust valves are the same diameter - but the valves are NOT the same of course. In 1959 it was only an option to have the larger inlet valves and it was standard from 1960 onwards. My 1959 Dommie had most of the factory optional extras from the red-print pages at the back of the spare list includingtwin carbs, chrome guards, large inlet valves and HC pistons.

I must admit I hadn't heard of 'floating' rocker shafts before. I imagine this would have been a critical problem for racing bikes? I'm surprised John Hudson never mentioned it in our exchange of correspondence in 1965/66.

Cheers, Lionel