650SS cam timing

Previously clive_rickman wrote:

Can someone provide me with the cam timing data for a 1963 650 SS please? The engine runs, but not so well - it is chucking wet fuel vapour back out of the intakes so I suspect incorrect valve timing.I have looked for the timing maks on the timing wheels but these are not readily visible.

Ps. Subsequent to the above, I have now removed the sprockets etc and cleaned them thoroughly. I can now seea feint etchingon the cam sprocket adjacent to the keyway which I assume is a timing mark. I have also discovered a small centre-punched mark on the intermediate sprocket (almost diametricly opposite the obvious timing mark on its integral gear wheel) and I reckon this must be the other marking I am seeking.Can anyone confirm this is correct, please?

Thanks - Clive

Hello there are 4 punch marks one on the cam sprocket and one on the intermediate sprocket and to the the crankshaft punch mark you have too remove the worm drive mind you it a left hand thread and you have to then remove all the rocker covers and outer primary cover too and then find TDC for the drive side or left hand cylinder all valves closed on drive side only , now look at the two bottom crankshaft punch marks one on the bottom of the intermediate gear /sprocket and one on the Crankshaft gear, these two meet up or mesh together now dab a spot of white paint on these so you can see them ok , now the sprockets intermediate and cam sprockets punch marks now should be at 11.o'clock and six outer links showing now as for chain tension you need around a 1/4 inch slack these chains do not run tight, now you done this you valves now should be set, but if you like to check it with a timing disc your setting are 50/77/82/42 this is for 650 manxman to sports special have fun yours anna j

Anna forgot to mention that you will need one of these... no doubt other makes are available; or a cut-down spare timing cover, in order to keep everything in line for chain tensioning etc.

Just to clarify Clive, how has this fault come about? Have you,or a n other just rebuilt the engine?

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Anna forgot to mention that you will need one of these... no doubt other makes are available; or a cut-down spare timing cover, in order to keep everything in line for chain tensioning etc.

Why buy one from Norvil when you can make one out of plywood in no time all you need is a good black&decker jigsaw as long has you cover the locating pegs then later you can make another out of alloy sheet 4 mm with the plywood has a patient Sometimes I wonder if you guys have any brains

Anna. Don't be so rude! I wasn't saying you buy one from Norvil, was I? I said you need it, or something else like it which will do the job, such as a cut-down timing cover. To make the tool out of ply you have to be absolutely precise with all the hole spacings etc. Not everyone can do that. You want to engage your brain before you engage your mouth, or typing finger, sometimes, Anna. That last sentence was uncalled for.

Clive. According to my manual, the correct valve timing is as follows :- 50/74/82/42.... that is with .016" clearance using a .003" feeler.

TBH, if you have a manual, you wouldn't need to be asking these questions.

Previously clive_rickman wrote:

Can someone provide me with the cam timing data for a 1963 650 SS please? The engine runs, but not so well - it is chucking wet fuel vapour back out of the intakes so I suspect incorrect valve timing.I have looked for the timing maks on the timing wheels but these are not readily visible.

Fuel vapour appearing near the carb intakes is caused by the overlap of the camshaft timing. ie. the inlet valves are beginning to open while the cylinder is still exhausting used gases. This leads to a slight blowback through the carb. The SS camshaft will do this.......the earlier standard Dommie cams not so much.

Attachments showing sprocket timing as suggested by DC. Plus DIY Timing Disk. I just printed off my copy onto stiff card.

Previously Phil Hannam wrote:

Previously clive_rickman wrote:

Can someone provide me with the cam timing data for a 1963 650 SS please? The engine runs, but not so well - it is chucking wet fuel vapour back out of the intakes so I suspect incorrect valve timing.I have looked for the timing maks on the timing wheels but these are not readily visible.

Fuel vapour appearing near the carb intakes is caused by the overlap of the camshaft timing. ie. the inlet valves are beginning to open while the cylinder is still exhausting used gases. This leads to a slight blowback through the carb. The SS camshaft will do this.......the earlier standard Dommie cams not so much.

Attachments showing sprocket timing as suggested by DC. Plus DIY Timing Disk. I just printed off my copy onto stiff card.

Hello yes good drawing but you must do the timing from the DRIVE SIDE Cylinder or the left hand side cylinder

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously clive_rickman wrote:

Can someone provide me with the cam timing data for a 1963 650 SS please? The engine runs, but not so well - it is chucking wet fuel vapour back out of the intakes so I suspect incorrect valve timing.I have looked for the timing maks on the timing wheels but these are not readily visible.

Ps. Subsequent to the above, I have now removed the sprockets etc and cleaned them thoroughly. I can now seea feint etchingon the cam sprocket adjacent to the keyway which I assume is a timing mark. I have also discovered a small centre-punched mark on the intermediate sprocket (almost diametricly opposite the obvious timing mark on its integral gear wheel) and I reckon this must be the other marking I am seeking.Can anyone confirm this is correct, please?

Thanks - Clive

Hello there are 4 punch marks one on the cam sprocket and one on the intermediate sprocket and to the the crankshaft punch mark you have too remove the worm drive mind you it a left hand thread and you have to then remove all the rocker covers and outer primary cover too and then find TDC for the drive side or left hand cylinder all valves closed on drive side only , now look at the two bottom crankshaft punch marks one on the bottom of the intermediate gear /sprocket and one on the Crankshaft gear, these two meet up or mesh together now dab a spot of white paint on these so you can see them ok , now the sprockets intermediate and cam sprockets punch marks now should be at 11.o'clock and six outer links showing now as for chain tension you need around a 1/4 inch slack these chains do not run tight, now you done this you valves now should be set, but if you like to check it with a timing disc your setting are 50/77/82/42 this is for 650 manxman to sports special have fun yours anna j

Thanks for this Anna. I presume the timing figures apply as follows:

Inlet opens 50 BTDC closes 74 ABDC

Ex opens 82 BBDC closes 42 ATDC

I'd be grateful if you could confirm. Thanks - Clive

Anna. Don't be so rude! I wasn't saying you buy one from Norvil, was I? I said you need it, or something else like it which will do the job, such as a cut-down timing cover. To make the tool out of ply you have to be absolutely precise with all the hole spacings etc. Not everyone can do that. You want to engage your brain before you engage your mouth, or typing finger, sometimes, Anna. That last sentence was uncalled for.

Phil. I have to say that my 650SS has never displayed such symptoms.

Clive. Regarding manuals, yes, I have stacks, too. However, I wouldn't dream of attacking valve timing without first consulting one. The option of going on line hoping to get correct answers comes a poor 2nd to that. A manual makes a good read, and provides questions and answers. Without one, you have to know which questions to ask. Also, you are reliant on the accuracy of the on-line answers. For example, Anna has given you one set of valve timings, I, via my manual, have given you another. Which do you choose? I have now triple-checked from other sources for you, and that backs up my valve timings. Anna is well known for her inaccurate keyboard work; just check her posts.

Anna; yes, I forgot, you are from Yorkshire, and call a spade a spade; silly me.

If you look in your Commando manual you will see the same valve timing method being described by everyone here. The timing marks are the same. The valve timing cannot slip on a Norton twin due to the Woodruff keys so if your timing marks are meshing and you have 10 chain pins between cam wheel mark and intermediate sprocket mark, your valve timing has to be right.

Clive. Don't get e wrong; I didn't mean it as a criticism, although my initial comment on the manual may have sounded a bit brusque. This can be a problem with forums (fora?), e-mails, txt's etc, They do not necessarily convey the sender's meaning. A bit like Anna calling us numpties, no-brains etc.... she would have us believe she is smiling benignly at us whilst typing randomly and lobbing out the insults!

Fortunately we are well served with manuals for our Norton twins, readily available from numerous sources. Andover Norton, RGM, Norman White, Norvil, Mick Hemmings etc can all send us 'genuine' Norton manuals, as well as, of course, being able to source originals on e-bay, or even from the previous owner when he sells you the bike, if you are lucky.BMS is another one who has a huge variety available.That is not to say that original manuals are error free, and that applies to all sorts of makes, as witnessed by typo's, incorrect part numbers occasionally, etc etc. Despite that, I still think that best advice to anybody who becomes the proud owner of a new-to-them old bike, is to get a manual, and a parts book, if available. I actually enjoy reading them, trying to get under the skin of the new p&j, in my case recently an iron-head T110.

The job you are tackling has several pitfalls one could stumble into, and having the manual spread out beside you is beneficial. However, you have just mentioned that you have done it on Commando's, so no prob's.

Phil. I have to say that my 650SS has never displayed such symptoms.

Clive. Regarding manuals, yes, I have stacks, too. However, I wouldn't dream of attacking valve timing without first consulting one. The option of going on line hoping to get correct answers comes a poor 2nd to that. A manual makes a good read, and provides questions and answers. Without one, you have to know which questions to ask. Also, you are reliant on the accuracy of the on-line answers. For example, Anna has given you one set of valve timings, I, via my manual, have given you another. Which do you choose? I have now triple-checked from other sources for you, and that backs up my valve timings. Anna is well known for her inaccurate keyboard work; just check her posts.

Anna; yes, I forgot, you are from Yorkshire, and call a spade a spade; silly me.

Clive. Don't get e wrong; I didn't mean it as a criticism, although my initial comment on the manual may have sounded a bit brusque. This can be a problem with forums (fora?), e-mails, txt's etc, They do not necessarily convey the sender's meaning. A bit like Anna calling us numpties, no-brains etc.... she would have us believe she is smiling benignly at us whilst typing randomly and lobbing out the insults!

Fortunately we are well served with manuals for our Norton twins, readily available from numerous sources. Andover Norton, RGM, Norman White, Norvil, Mick Hemmings etc can all send us 'genuine' Norton manuals, as well as, of course, being able to source originals on e-bay, or even from the previous owner when he sells you the bike, if you are lucky.BMS is another one who has a huge variety available.That is not to say that original manuals are error free, and that applies to all sorts of makes, as witnessed by typo's, incorrect part numbers occasionally, etc etc. Despite that, I still think that best advice to anybody who becomes the proud owner of a new-to-them old bike, is to get a manual, and a parts book, if available. I actually enjoy reading them, trying to get under the skin of the new p&j, in my case recently an iron-head T110.

The job you are tackling has several pitfalls one could stumble into, and having the manual spread out beside you is beneficial. However, you have just mentioned that you have done it on Commando's, so no prob's.

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

My Valve timing is 100% accurate has there for the Norton Manxman 650 ...... NOT the SS camshaft , !!!!!! yours Anna J

In which case, Anna, you gave Clive valve timing for the wrong bike; his is a 650SS.........

Dear Manx Maid - You're confusing people again. The Manxman had the same camshaft as the 88SS, 99SS and 650SS. So the valve timing figures quoted are correct for Clives purpose. The same figures also apply to the Atlas, Mercury and first Commandos. Regards, Howard

Dear Manx Maid - You're confusing people again. The Manxman had the same camshaft as the 88SS, 99SS and 650SS. So the valve timing figures quoted are correct for Clives purpose. The same figures also apply to the Atlas, Mercury and first Commandos. Regards, Howard

Hello Members

I always treat what the manx rider and owner Anna says with the greatest respect her knowledge is second to none and gives out her knowledge with a great freedom . The manx man fron Cosmo shop has been sold but I am trying to get a 62 650ss

John

Dominator & Commando Valve Timing Data. See attachment.

Hello Members

I always treat what the manx rider and owner Anna says with the greatest respect her knowledge is second to none and gives out her knowledge with a great freedom . The manx man fron Cosmo shop has been sold but I am trying to get a 62 650ss

John

Dominator & Commando Valve Timing Data. See attachment.

I am looking at a advert for a 650ss for just under £8,000 . It looks pretty good and I hope to go and see it in 3 weeks I just hope it is still there. So I am looking at all the topics on the 650 ss. Good luck Clive with your timing question

john

Clive. It doesn't look too promising, does it? I have attempted to attach data on most cams for Nortons, as supplied by RGM. I can only attach a low-res version; hope you can read it. Your cam is probably standard, but well worn, or as you say, a badly machined aftermarket version.

. RGM do point out that- quote - 'all specs are theoretical.None of the cams (they have) measured completely match the quoted figures, there is a margin of error in the manufacture of a cam which is sometimes massive, errors of 10 degrees or more are commonplace. In any event, valves do not follow cam profiles in anything other than a theoretical manner, clearances, tolerances, and give in the valve train all combine to cause the valve movement to deviate from that dictated by the cam profile.'

That does not explain your deviation. It looks as though you need to pull it out and have a look.

I will try a higher res. version, that one is not very clear.....

Previously clive_rickman wrote:

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Phil. I have to say that my 650SS has never displayed such symptoms.

Clive. Regarding manuals, yes, I have stacks, too. However, I wouldn't dream of attacking valve timing without first consulting one. The option of going on line hoping to get correct answers comes a poor 2nd to that. A manual makes a good read, and provides questions and answers. Without one, you have to know which questions to ask. Also, you are reliant on the accuracy of the on-line answers. For example, Anna has given you one set of valve timings, I, via my manual, have given you another. Which do you choose? I have now triple-checked from other sources for you, and that backs up my valve timings. Anna is well known for her inaccurate keyboard work; just check her posts.

Anna; yes, I forgot, you are from Yorkshire, and call a spade a spade; silly me.

Ian, I have now set up the timing gear in the specified manner (using the timing marks and 10 chain roller spacing). Because the engine was previously not running well I checked the valve duration with a timing disc having first set valve clearances to 0.016" (and used a 0.003" feeler gauge to determine opening and closing).

The figures I used were the ones you suggested, ieInlet opens 50' BTDC, closes 74' ABDC and Exhaust opens 82' BBDC, closes 42' ATDC.

The results I got were so unexpected that I carried out the procedure for a second time and got the same figures. They were as follows:

Left side. In opens 48' BTDC, closes 67' ABDC. Ex opens 59' BBDC, closes 39' ATDC

Right side. In opens 61' BTDC, closes 71' ABDC. Ex 83' BBDC, closes 62' ATDC

Now the valve opening duration for both In and EX valves is the same, at 304', by my reckoning. However the duration measured on my engine varies from 278' up to 324' across the 4 valves. Bizzare!

I can only think the camshaft is not the standard item and/or the cam followers have varying radii. What else is there???

It looks like an engine strip is required. Clive

Hello well Its not the right cam and time for a change, now try Steve Maney Middletown Near Wakefield west yorkshire he dose have a web site , hope this may help one! yours Anna J

It does sound as if you have a cam made in the far east!, Or perhaps worn. I can't imagine that the motor would perform well with these figures. I would also check that the followers are not loose or unevenly worn.

I have a commando camshaft somewhere in my pile of parts and, once the existing one is on the bench, I'll compare the two to see whether this is compatible. From memory, I think it has a higher performance profile so not sure whether I'd want to fit it. We'll see...

Clive. The Commando camshafts are different, on the timing side end, with a rev-counter drive, so won't fit the Dommie.

It is not possible to tell what cam you have from your timings, as they are so different one to the other. I took a cam out of my Commando proddie racer which was so worn that the lobes were all different heights, and would probably have given strange results like yours.

Just a thought, did you have the intermediate shaft supported when you checked the timings; preferably not with a piece of plywood?! That may give false readings, if not?

The standard 650 cam is good, but if you are changing, it may be worth considering a PW3... others will no doubt contribute thoughts here....

I think the 650 still has the oil bath cam tunnel, which goes a long way in keeping the cam lubed. I would not think it worthwhile changing to another cam if it meant carving up the tunnel for clearance and losing this good feature.

Previously clive_rickman wrote:

I know the intermediate shaft should, ideally, be supported although I didn't do this. However, I wouldn't expect such a huge variance with the expected figures even so!

Thanks for your input. Clive

So many things could contribute to this, and one needs to eliminate as many variables as possible. The shaft will have been flopping around a bit as you turned the engine.....

Another factor could be worn camshaft bushes, which will cause the cam to flop around as well, affecting its function.

As far as the PW3 cam goes, there is, as Bob says, work to do to get it to fit, including opening out the oil bath trough a bit; checking valve to piston clearance etc. Depends what you want. As I said, the original cam was good enough right through to the Commando's, so is the safest bet really. I fitted a 4S cam in mine, which is good, giving plenty of grunt, but it too involves work as above.

Previously clive_rickman wrote:

I know the intermediate shaft should, ideally, be supported although I didn't do this. However, I wouldn't expect such a huge variance with the expected figures even so!

Thanks for your input. Clive

So many things could contribute to this, and one needs to eliminate as many variables as possible. The shaft will have been flopping around a bit as you turned the engine.....

Another factor could be worn camshaft bushes, which will cause the cam to flop around as well, affecting its function.

As far as the PW3 cam goes, there is, as Bob says, work to do to get it to fit, including opening out the oil bath trough a bit; checking valve to piston clearance etc. Depends what you want. As I said, the original cam was good enough right through to the Commando's, so is the safest bet really. I fitted a 4S cam in mine, which is good, giving plenty of grunt, but it too involves work as above.