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Ignition Timing

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Hi,
All is not well on the starting, well, non-starting, of my 1972 Commando. Spins over fine on the Alton, new coils produce big fat sparks on new  Brisk plugs,the Tri-Spark electronic ignition shows its tell-tale light at  28 degrees BTDC, plenty of petrol, (and EasyStart spray), but I just get pops and bangs, if I am lucky.. 
I want to check the 28 degree setting, the old-fashioned way viz: a pencil down the plug-hole, mark TDC level with the plug-hole fining , then turn the engine  backwards by what ever are the number of millimetres that equate to 28 degree BTDC.  Does anybody know the answer? I worked it out on a Castrol timing disc as being 11mms, but since it won't fire up, this must be wrong. It could be the Tri-Spark has lost its mapping, but Andover Norton thinks not.
So, does any member know the answer? Please don't guess!
If you live near Clare in Suffolk, come over, and see if between us we can get it going. It was running perfectly, before it suddenly wasn't. I think the Tri-Spark rotor might have slipped on the cone mounting on the end of the camshaft, as it seemed to be marginally loose, thus affecting the stator timing. A bit far-fetched, but it has to be something!
All very strange.
Andy Bone
01787 277441

 

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Make sure the degree scale in the primary cover is accurately set, and make sure the Trispark rotor is with tolerance regarding how much offset from the ignition plate mounting surface it should be. For it to be working ok and then not sounds like something has slipped, broken, blocked or otherwise gone duff, wiring all ok? 

Thanks for the suggestion, don't think that is the problem. We, (there are two of us trying to get the bike to run, owning between us a dozen bikes), have done all the basic checks, several times over.
I will try one more idea. I have wired the ignition stator to a separate earth, so it can be manually rotated through 360 degrees when the engine is being cranked. Somewhere there must be a sweet spot, which will fire her up. If not, the TriSpark must be faulty Just need my mate to do the honours on the rotation bit, but he is in Malta for several months, having ridden there on his Black Shadow.

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You can't determine TDC accurately by feeling with a pencil. Its better to use the 'split the difference' method with a plug stop and degree disk and forget about linear measurement.

I have always found that timing doesn't have to be spot on to at least start, if not to run well, so your method may be good enough to at least get you going.  The stroke is 89mm, then ignoring the con rod effect, which will be insignificant at a small angle like 28 degrees, the distance is 89/2 * (1-cos 28) = 5.2mm

 

Very helpful. I know it is a hit and miss solution, but good enough to get the engine to run. I have tried so,many BTDC settings, that I would have thought one of them would be close enough for her to run, however badly. Anyway, see the post above, for another idea I will implement anon.  

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When clueless (a lot of the time )  with a bike ,i just set the static (retarded) timing a few degrees /mm before TDC and adjust it after starting a few times so that i cant provoke  much of a kickback .(cant afford that anyway with old arthritic legs) . Probably takes the edge off the high performance but not by much as i still get told to slow down,and ,   its not a race !. 

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Are you sure you are on the firing stroke when setting your timing?
A common slip up when your fixing rather than fettling.

Thanks for your response. The Tri Spark fires on both cylinders on each rotation, so there is no right or left requirement, or so I am told by Andover. Certainly the wiring goes to both coils, so it sounds right. I might refit my Boyer, which I kept, if all esle fails.

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My money is on the following............
The Firing Point is close to max advance at around 28*.
This will allow the Ignition to fire and power a stroke. But this stroke then over-advances the ignition until the system fights itself to a stop.
A similar effect will occur if a Dominator electronic ignition system is bolted on a Commando engine with timing cover points. The ignition will advance itself into a retarded mode.

That is interesting. When we first fitted the Tri Spark we did in fact go way beyond the 28 degree setting, for it to work, which it did very, very well. The trouble is, I cannot remember exactly what we did. We clamped the rotor, and heaved a sigh of relief, as one does!

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Not quite right Jon, this is electronic wasted spark ignition, hence either cylinder is firing ie there is only ONE timing point. There is very little that can be wrong with the wiring if you have a spark BUT there is one thing, the pickup wiring if reversed will cancel the advance. Which in theory makes the ignition very retarded. and can stop (hinder) any starting/running the engine.
Further thoughts.- It was running perfectly, before it suddenly wasn't. 
This is a very tell tale point, if it was running then it stopped with nothing being interfered with then something must have changed. The idea that the rotor has slipped is a good start to investigate.
The ignition timing won't be out if it was set up right, so something has changed/moved.

 



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