Kickstart return or lack of and leak from kickstart shaft seal

Previously wrote:

Hello All

My 99's kickstart does not return from full stroke, although it will return from horizontal. I fitted a new spring and there was only one spring tang hole in the inner casing to chose from. Is it possible that hole is not in the right place, so the spring is not getting enough tension? (The shaft is not bent).

Also, I'm having difficulty with stopping an oil leak (50W) from the kickstart shaft O ring seal, in the outer cover. I've tried a new O ring, with silicone sealant but it still weeps. The new O ring from Norvil did not seem fat enough to fill the groove properly.

I know the the above annoyances are no big deal in the scheme of things but any suggestions on how to fix them will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Graham

hello graham first you are useing the wrong oil grade try EP80 its better And I use grease for a sealant Not Silicon the rubber O ring from Norvil are for the commando , the right part number for your Kickstarter shaft rubber O ring is 040005 Hope this helps Yours Anna J dixon

I can vaguely remember the first rebuild of my 99 - it WAS in 1965 so bear with me! The kickstart shaft, along with many other parts, had been boogered by the previous owner, who had clearly run it into the ground in the 5 years he had owned it from new! I'm only the second private owner! In those days the dealer had to put their name in the logbook so Taylor Matterson are actuallyfirst in mine. Anyway, I bought a secondhand shaft but found the return spring hole in it was in a different place so I couldn't engage it. I gave it to my Dad who took it to work and ground a bit off the outer case-hardening locally and drilled a new hole to match the location on the old shaft! So they changed the shaft and the return spring somewhere along the line between 1959 and 1965. Not much help to you I guess?

My bike is in pieces now as a long-term restoration but it still has the altered k/start shaft - it never gave me any trouble in the few thousand miles I rode the bike before being given a car!

John Hudson would flinch at the use of any EP oil in the gearbox! Its characteristics are nothing like a straight grade engine oil and some people have had trouble with it. I guess if you're not doing a heavy mileage it won't matter - like not changing valve seats to use unleaded petrol. If you're only doing "show" mileage every year it isn't necessary. I'll have to disagree with Anna and say that you are definitely using the RIGHT grade of gearbox oil!

Previously wrote:

Hello All

My 99's kickstart does not return from full stroke, although it will return from horizontal. I fitted a new spring and there was only one spring tang hole in the inner casing to chose from. Is it possible that hole is not in the right place, so the spring is not getting enough tension? (The shaft is not bent).

Also, I'm having difficulty with stopping an oil leak (50W) from the kickstart shaft O ring seal, in the outer cover. I've tried a new O ring, with silicone sealant but it still weeps. The new O ring from Norvil did not seem fat enough to fill the groove properly.

I know the the above annoyances are no big deal in the scheme of things but any suggestions on how to fix them will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Graham

Hello Graham

Instead of an O ring I use a Quad ring - it has a square section and works very well. I bought them from Revolution ( their ref 4-019 ) but other bearing suppliers will have them.

Not such an issue but their ref Q114 gets you one for the gearchange shaft.

The kickstart spring issue istrickierat long range. The original advice was to pretension the spring by one and a half turns when fitting. Now we have a choice of the early or late setof shaft, inner cover and spring and the possibility of a mixed set . The most common mismatch appears to be the use of a Commando KS shaft on a early bike. It fits fine but needs a new hole drilled to accomodate the early short spring.

Hope this is helpful.

Iain

Previously wrote:

I can vaguely remember the first rebuild of my 99 - it WAS in 1965 so bear with me! The kickstart shaft, along with many other parts, had been boogered by the previous owner, who had clearly run it into the ground in the 5 years he had owned it from new! I'm only the second private owner! In those days the dealer had to put their name in the logbook so Taylor Matterson are actuallyfirst in mine. Anyway, I bought a secondhand shaft but found the return spring hole in it was in a different place so I couldn't engage it. I gave it to my Dad who took it to work and ground a bit off the outer case-hardening locally and drilled a new hole to match the location on the old shaft! So they changed the shaft and the return spring somewhere along the line between 1959 and 1965. Not much help to you I guess?

My bike is in pieces now as a long-term restoration but it still has the altered k/start shaft - it never gave me any trouble in the few thousand miles I rode the bike before being given a car!

John Hudson would flinch at the use of any EP oil in the gearbox! Its characteristics are nothing like a straight grade engine oil and some people have had trouble with it. I guess if you're not doing a heavy mileage it won't matter - like not changing valve seats to use unleaded petrol. If you're only doing "show" mileage every year it isn't necessary. I'll have to disagree with Anna and say that you are definitely using the RIGHT grade of gearbox oil!

hello Lionel Ep 80 Milliers Classic Is Formulated For 1950s to 1970sMotorcycle Gearboxs And I have Used EP 80 for 40 years now with NO trouble at all ,And Raced On it Too ,So John Hudson was not all ways right ,And EP means extreme pressure in witch a gearbox is under all the time when the Bike is running And I would Not us GP50 AS IT is Castor Based Oil And will dry out , and the gearbox does not get hot enough for it to do its work ? YourS Anna J Dixon

Previously wrote:

I can vaguely remember the first rebuild of my 99 - it WAS in 1965 so bear with me! The kickstart shaft, along with many other parts, had been boogered by the previous owner, who had clearly run it into the ground in the 5 years he had owned it from new! I'm only the second private owner! In those days the dealer had to put their name in the logbook so Taylor Matterson are actuallyfirst in mine. Anyway, I bought a secondhand shaft but found the return spring hole in it was in a different place so I couldn't engage it. I gave it to my Dad who took it to work and ground a bit off the outer case-hardening locally and drilled a new hole to match the location on the old shaft! So they changed the shaft and the return spring somewhere along the line between 1959 and 1965. Not much help to you I guess?

My bike is in pieces now as a long-term restoration but it still has the altered k/start shaft - it never gave me any trouble in the few thousand miles I rode the bike before being given a car!

John Hudson would flinch at the use of any EP oil in the gearbox! Its characteristics are nothing like a straight grade engine oil and some people have had trouble with it. I guess if you're not doing a heavy mileage it won't matter - like not changing valve seats to use unleaded petrol. If you're only doing "show" mileage every year it isn't necessary. I'll have to disagree with Anna and say that you are definitely using the RIGHT grade of gearbox oil!

Hello Norton Stopped Making the (99) In September 1962 Lionel And Try EP80 Milliers Classic And See The Diffrence , No Nochey Gearchange ,I Us It IN MY Norton Manxman And My 1954 88 with No trouble at all so you can disagree all you like ? the proof is in the eating of the puding ?

YOURS Anna J Dixon

Previously wrote:

Hello All

My 99's kickstart does not return from full stroke, although it will return from horizontal. I fitted a new spring and there was only one spring tang hole in the inner casing to chose from. Is it possible that hole is not in the right place, so the spring is not getting enough tension? (The shaft is not bent).

Also, I'm having difficulty with stopping an oil leak (50W) from the kickstart shaft O ring seal, in the outer cover. I've tried a new O ring, with silicone sealant but it still weeps. The new O ring from Norvil did not seem fat enough to fill the groove properly.

I know the the above annoyances are no big deal in the scheme of things but any suggestions on how to fix them will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Graham

Hello Graham,

A solution I've heard about is to fit the commando MK3 K/S oil seal into the earlier outer gearbox cover.

Regards,

Albert

Previously wrote:

Hello All

My 99's kickstart does not return from full stroke, although it will return from horizontal. I fitted a new spring and there was only one spring tang hole in the inner casing to chose from. Is it possible that hole is not in the right place, so the spring is not getting enough tension? (The shaft is not bent).

Also, I'm having difficulty with stopping an oil leak (50W) from the kickstart shaft O ring seal, in the outer cover. I've tried a new O ring, with silicone sealant but it still weeps. The new O ring from Norvil did not seem fat enough to fill the groove properly.

I know the the above annoyances are no big deal in the scheme of things but any suggestions on how to fix them will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Graham

Re: the K/S return spring. Back in 1965 when I first rebuilt my 99 I had a similar mismatch with the spring relative to the kickstart. My Dad took the shaft to work, ground off a bit of case-hardening at the appropriate point and drilled a new hole for the spring! You'll have trouble drilling through case-hardening! It's such a long time ago I can't remember whether I'd pinched the shaft from my '54 88 laid-down box. This might have been the problem, or it may bethat in 1965 the return spring available was different to the original? In hindsight perhaps I should have drilled a new hole in the g/b casing!

I will be using the same drilled shaft when I rebuild it this time around!

Cheers, Lionel

Previously wrote:

I can vaguely remember the first rebuild of my 99 - it WAS in 1965 so bear with me! The kickstart shaft, along with many other parts, had been boogered by the previous owner, who had clearly run it into the ground in the 5 years he had owned it from new! I'm only the second private owner! In those days the dealer had to put their name in the logbook so Taylor Matterson are actuallyfirst in mine. Anyway, I bought a secondhand shaft but found the return spring hole in it was in a different place so I couldn't engage it. I gave it to my Dad who took it to work and ground a bit off the outer case-hardening locally and drilled a new hole to match the location on the old shaft! So they changed the shaft and the return spring somewhere along the line between 1959 and 1965. Not much help to you I guess?

My bike is in pieces now as a long-term restoration but it still has the altered k/start shaft - it never gave me any trouble in the few thousand miles I rode the bike before being given a car!

John Hudson would flinch at the use of any EP oil in the gearbox! Its characteristics are nothing like a straight grade engine oil and some people have had trouble with it. I guess if you're not doing a heavy mileage it won't matter - like not changing valve seats to use unleaded petrol. If you're only doing "show" mileage every year it isn't necessary. I'll have to disagree with Anna and say that you are definitely using the RIGHT grade of gearbox oil! lionel I have watched john hudsons doing gearbox on DVD and he used EP(90) Castrol In a domie 54 gearbox I have the Dvd To prove it Your Anna J Dixon

Previously wrote:

Hello All

My 99's kickstart does not return from full stroke, although it will return from horizontal. I fitted a new spring and there was only one spring tang hole in the inner casing to chose from. Is it possible that hole is not in the right place, so the spring is not getting enough tension? (The shaft is not bent).

Also, I'm having difficulty with stopping an oil leak (50W) from the kickstart shaft O ring seal, in the outer cover. I've tried a new O ring, with silicone sealant but it still weeps. The new O ring from Norvil did not seem fat enough to fill the groove properly.

I know the the above annoyances are no big deal in the scheme of things but any suggestions on how to fix them will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Graham

Hahaha! I'm going round in circles! The convolutedlisting of the order of messages caused me to repeat myself! (Is there an echo in here?). Anna seems to have just recently responded to aletter I wrote last June!

The points about gearbox oils are these:

1) John Hudson did not make mistakes - he was a Saint! (OK, so maybe he did use EP oil on his video - Ihaven't seen it!).

2) Norton manuals for AMC-type boxes, as well as Castrol charts,recommended engine oil until the early 1960's then from around 1965 SAE50 was recommended.

3) Straight cut spur gears are NOT under "Extreme Pressure", in engineering terms, as they have maximum tooth contact compared with helical cut or hypoid gears (which also have more of a sliding action). This is why they don't need "EP" oils.

4) Don't forget that true unit construction engines use the same oil for engine and gearbox - bikes AND cars! This is NOT "EP".

5) If the EP oil costs more that the standard oil, it's a waste of money using it.

6) A quote about EP oils:- "While vital in preventing metal-to-metal contact in boundary lubrication regimes, they can be corrosive under certain conditions, particularly to yellow metals such as copper, brass and bronze that are commonly used in industrial worm gears and other components." This means that the gearbox bushes are in danger!

Regarding this last problem, you'll find on the internet that other Norton owners have changed back to straight 50 oil because of suchdamage. Why take the risk if the box doesn't actually NEED an EP oil?

Cheers, Lionel

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Hello All

My 99's kickstart does not return from full stroke, although it will return from horizontal. I fitted a new spring and there was only one spring tang hole in the inner casing to chose from. Is it possible that hole is not in the right place, so the spring is not getting enough tension? (The shaft is not bent).

Also, I'm having difficulty with stopping an oil leak (50W) from the kickstart shaft O ring seal, in the outer cover. I've tried a new O ring, with silicone sealant but it still weeps. The new O ring from Norvil did not seem fat enough to fill the groove properly.

I know the the above annoyances are no big deal in the scheme of things but any suggestions on how to fix them will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Graham

Hahaha! I'm going round in circles! The convolutedlisting of the order of messages caused me to repeat myself! (Is there an echo in here?). Anna seems to have just recently responded to aletter I wrote last June!

The points about gearbox oils are these:

1) John Hudson did not make mistakes - he was a Saint! (OK, so maybe he did use EP oil on his video - Ihaven't seen it!).

2) Norton manuals for AMC-type boxes, as well as Castrol charts,recommended engine oil until the early 1960's then from around 1965 SAE50 was recommended.

3) Straight cut spur gears are NOT under "Extreme Pressure", in engineering terms, as they have maximum tooth contact compared with helical cut or hypoid gears (which also have more of a sliding action). This is why they don't need "EP" oils.

4) Don't forget that true unit construction engines use the same oil for engine and gearbox - bikes AND cars! This is NOT "EP".

5) If the EP oil costs more that the standard oil, it's a waste of money using it.

6) A quote about EP oils:- "While vital in preventing metal-to-metal contact in boundary lubrication regimes, they can be corrosive under certain conditions, particularly to yellow metals such as copper, brass and bronze that are commonly used in industrial worm gears and other components." This means that the gearbox bushes are in danger!

Regarding this last problem, you'll find on the internet that other Norton owners have changed back to straight 50 oil because of suchdamage. Why take the risk if the box doesn't actually NEED an EP oil?

Cheers, Lionel

hello lionel yes you are right in that there is no need for( EP)additives, but Millier oils do SAE.80/gearbox oilwithNO. EP additives ,formulated for motorcycles ,As for the DVD I have Some for Sale at pounds 6.50pence My Keyboad does not have a pound sign on it ? yours anna J

Previously wrote:

Hello All

My 99's kickstart does not return from full stroke, although it will return from horizontal. I fitted a new spring and there was only one spring tang hole in the inner casing to chose from. Is it possible that hole is not in the right place, so the spring is not getting enough tension? (The shaft is not bent).

Also, I'm having difficulty with stopping an oil leak (50W) from the kickstart shaft O ring seal, in the outer cover. I've tried a new O ring, with silicone sealant but it still weeps. The new O ring from Norvil did not seem fat enough to fill the groove properly.

I know the the above annoyances are no big deal in the scheme of things but any suggestions on how to fix them will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Graham

graham One thing I would like to say is there are different springs for norton kickstart as time went on they change the kickstart spings ? one to look at ? yours Anna J dixon

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Hello All

My 99's kickstart does not return from full stroke, although it will return from horizontal. I fitted a new spring and there was only one spring tang hole in the inner casing to chose from. Is it possible that hole is not in the right place, so the spring is not getting enough tension? (The shaft is not bent).

Also, I'm having difficulty with stopping an oil leak (50W) from the kickstart shaft O ring seal, in the outer cover. I've tried a new O ring, with silicone sealant but it still weeps. The new O ring from Norvil did not seem fat enough to fill the groove properly.

I know the the above annoyances are no big deal in the scheme of things but any suggestions on how to fix them will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Graham

Hahaha! I'm going round in circles! The convolutedlisting of the order of messages caused me to repeat myself! (Is there an echo in here?). Anna seems to have just recently responded to aletter I wrote last June!

The points about gearbox oils are these:

1) John Hudson did not make mistakes - he was a Saint! (OK, so maybe he did use EP oil on his video - Ihaven't seen it!).

2) Norton manuals for AMC-type boxes, as well as Castrol charts,recommended engine oil until the early 1960's then from around 1965 SAE50 was recommended.

3) Straight cut spur gears are NOT under "Extreme Pressure", in engineering terms, as they have maximum tooth contact compared with helical cut or hypoid gears (which also have more of a sliding action). This is why they don't need "EP" oils.

4) Don't forget that true unit construction engines use the same oil for engine and gearbox - bikes AND cars! This is NOT "EP".

5) If the EP oil costs more that the standard oil, it's a waste of money using it.

6) A quote about EP oils:- "While vital in preventing metal-to-metal contact in boundary lubrication regimes, they can be corrosive under certain conditions, particularly to yellow metals such as copper, brass and bronze that are commonly used in industrial worm gears and other components." This means that the gearbox bushes are in danger!

Regarding this last problem, you'll find on the internet that other Norton owners have changed back to straight 50 oil because of suchdamage. Why take the risk if the box doesn't actually NEED an EP oil?

Cheers, Lionel

hello lionel yes you are right in that there is no need for( EP)additives, but Millier oils do SAE.80/gearbox oilwithNO. EP additives ,formulated for motorcycles ,As for the DVD I have Some for Sale at pounds 6.50pence My Keyboad does not have a pound sign on it ? yours anna J

Thanks Anna,Wot? A foreign keyboard? LOL!!! £££££ ! It would worry me that there may be some deterioration of the bushes so I would not try an EP oil - especially not if it is more expensive! Still, you seem to have had no probs. Apparently the viscosity of Gearbox oil at SAE90 is very similar to engine oil at SAE40 or 50 so the Miller oil you mention could be the better option.

I know they finished 99's in 1962. Mine's a July 1959 bike, built and registered in that month. They used to stamp the year & month on the rear mudguards! I found mine after I cleaned it up - it was originally chrome but too rusty for re-chroming. I'll restore it to painting quality and sell itas I have bought good repro 'guards which I will polish myself prior to getting them chrome-plated. I boughtthe bikefrom Pride& Clarke in 1965 for £49.10s as a wreck (at only 6 years old with one private owner!) and had it shipped to SOuthampton by train in the Guard's van. I stripped it down and resprayed the frame & parts myself with an Electrolux vacuum cleaner! (Yes - REALLY!) It had a number of faults, all pointing to abysmal/non-existent maintenance by the previous owner. These included one partially meltedpiston, holed & rotten silencers, 1 helicoiled plug thread, 1 damaged exhaust thread, barrel bored out to +.030", worn valve guides and abent distributor camshaft - all in around 16,000 miles! I guess it must be pretty obvious what the main cause of this was down to?

When I eventually finished it and started it up late one summer evening it was a real pig to get going (probably damaged thereplacement SS cam in my ignorance!) but when it DID start, it purred like a kitten! Smooth and even running like clockwork. Just one small problem - one exhaust pipe started glowing red! As it was around 2am and I tried everything I could think of until about 6am, I had to make other arrangements for the holiday the next day (same day!)and investigated the prob when I came back (I borrowed a mate's new Honda CB125 and went 2-up to the Norfolk Broads!). The cause turned out to be one of the faults listed above, which I hadn't spotted during the rebuild - Discuss and let me know what you think it was!

The original cam was the 'QR' but I'd decided I wanted an SS cam so I bought an old 88 engine with one in for £5, split it and just used the cam. I still have the rest of the engine! I sold my cam to Barry Lawton (Syd's racer son) who planned to use it in a Dommie for the I.o.M. "Barry, I want it back!". I've decided I want the QR soft cam again as I have dropped the C/R down to about 8:1 (I won't know until I measure it when I reassemble). At its first rebuild I went for 9.25:1 pistons and the bike ran best on 101 Octane petrol! I'm not going down that route on a 52 year old bike withits original crank and crap petrol!

I now need someone who can re-profile my SS cam to QR spec!

Cheers, Lionel

You shouldn't and don't need to use EP oils as 'staight' 80, 90 and even 140 is available from Castrol if you want to use a heavier grade. I have heard that the modern EP oils don't attack yellow metals like the old ones but I personally wouldn't trust it.

Regards

Bill

Previously wrote:

You shouldn't and don't need to use EP oils as 'staight' 80, 90 and even 140 is available from Castrol if you want to use a heavier grade. I have heard that the modern EP oils don't attack yellow metals like the old ones but I personally wouldn't trust it.

Regards

Bill

Yes Bill - if you hunt around this page throughits convoluted chronography you'll see what I said about that on Monday 11.56! In the olden days the manuals said to use the same grades as the engine oil, then it went up to standard SAE 50.

Cheers, Lionel