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Intermittent Alton starter

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Not sure whether this should be in the Electrical forum, but here goes.

I fitted an Alton starter kit to my MkIIA nine years ago, and apart from shredding the three plastic rods (now replaced by six) in the backfire device early on, it has worked so reliably that I've removed the kickstart. However, recently it has occasionally failed to turn the engine over on the first attempt. I have electronic instruments which sweep the needles on a self-test when the ignition is first switched on, and when I release the starter button after a failed start attempt (it just gives a grunt as if it's being balked by the compression) the instruments self-test again as if the ignition has been switched off and on again. The starter then usually works normally. This can happen whether the engine is hot or cold. The battery is an Exide AGM 18Ah 230 amp CCA just over a year old, and is kept on a CTEK charger in rotation with my two other bikes.

I'm concerned that this might be the start of a developing fault that will one day leave me stranded, so can anyone suggest what might be the cause?

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Battery? Or possible the main battery leads connectors have gone high resistance.
CTEK charger NOT to be trusted.

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The battery was new in April 2023, and the fault sometimes occurs straight after I've taken it off the CTEK showing fully charged. I'll check the battery leads and connections. Most of the time it starts OK though.

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If Al's suggestion brings you no result try and bypass the solenoid assuming one is fitted on the Alton system.

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Your CTEK smart charger is not able to take your battery to it's full capacity if you keep the battery on the bike while charging.

The Zener diode, or aftermarket reg/rec (if fitted) tend to prevent a smart charger from being able to condition a battery properly as the regulator setpoint won't let the battery charge fully.

The result is the battery life will be massively shortened.

When you replace your dead battery, try charging your new one off the bike and see if this helps matters.

It has an A-Reg voltage regulator, not a Zener any more, but the charger connects directly to the battery terminals (the same on all my bikes), so where does the voltage regulator come in?
I'm not saying you're wrong, maybe my electrical understanding is deficient. In fact, no maybe about it!

Because the reg/rec is controlling the maximum voltage whether your charger is connected to the battery terminals or not.

You smart charger doesn't know there is a reg/rec there, so will trickle charge for forever which dries out and sulfates the battery rather than conditions it like it tells you in the instruction manual.

Imagine a kitchen sink with two overflows one above the other - the top one (the charger) will never get wet because the bottom one (the reg/rec) is controlling the height of the water (the charge)

This is Interesting, I've heard quite a few times of batteries going west after being hooked up to a smart charger/ battery maintainer, and now some sort of an explanation. Question, would the rec/reg get warm? or is the current so small that it would not be felt (with the fingers?)  and how would a zener equipped bike cope?      

That's why I fitted a master switch which isolates the main system when I connect the charger, as shown below. Switch is 3-position with centre OFF.
Stan

master switch

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The battery used on this bike WAS 18Ahr but it is no longer! You can try to charge it how you like but you will NOT get 18Ahr from it again. Batteries are biscuit barrels ie you refill them when you eat the biscuits! BUT you are refiling them with the biscuits in the packet, eventually the biscuit barrel is full of empty PACKET it cannot hold biscuits.
The only way to to be able to say the battery is FULLY charged is to charge it properly for a good time, then discharge it (as far as you can) to see what Ahr you had in it. (this is a tricky job)
Your 18Ahr battery MIGHT only have 10Ahr left.
Do NOT believe automatic lamps on modern battery chargers.
In this particular case just one terminal having gone high resistance will stop the starter/battery.performing.
And you no longer have 18Ahr!

In reply to by alan_osborn

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I don't eat that many biscuits in 16 months, but maybe it's already time for a new battery. 
I don't think McVities make batteries, but what's recommended?
Yuasa, Banner, Motobatt are alternatives I've found so far, and to be fair, the Exide was a lot cheaper than these.

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Yuasa is a very good battery but of course expensive, but can you be sure you are dealing with the original Yuasa?
Motobatt seem to be good and usable.
Exide was a good maker of these things but the name has been stuck on another 'biscuit' barrel.
Stan's switch is ok but you do not need a centre off, a changeover switch will do. Adding switches and connectors to the bike will increase the chance of failure so pulling out the fuse and connect the battery charger just to the battery wire will suffice.

Yes Al, I agree with your comments but - it is fitted to a Navie and there was no way to stop someone from just starting up and riding off with it. So I fitted the 'hidden' switch so I could isolate the electrics to make it a wee bit harder and had that switch to hand.  

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I have been taking an interest in this topic from the beginning and was mildly alarmed to read about battery minder/chargers etc not doing what I expect it to be doing such as prolonging my bike batteries life especially the large one that turns my Commando over!
Intrigued by Grant Tiller's post regarding this subject below.
 I took a reading of my battery voltage as it had been on charge via the Optimate 4 charger since coming back from the Manx last Saturday, reading fully charged was 13.45v.
Removed earth lead from battery, replaced the Optimate to the battery to then see if any more volts could be witnessed on the Avo 8 meter, in fact the meter reading was fractionally less by .15v!
As a back up I took all readings with a quality digital meter which gave a similar outcome give or take a decimal point or two.
This set up is over 18 months old, re'conned dynamo new electronic regulator, new battery new Optimate, gives me a bright headlight and a healthy reading on the ammeter, spark at the plugs,all looks good.
Yesterday I sent Optimate an abridged version of my concerns about what I am reading on this forum topic. As yet no response so far.

  

""Submitted by Grant Tiller on Tue, 10/09/2024

In reply to Battery charging by Rob Bradley

Because the reg/rec is…

Because the reg/rec is controlling the maximum voltage whether your charger is connected to the battery terminals or not.

You smart charger doesn't know there is a reg/rec there, so will trickle charge for forever which dries out and sulfates the battery rather than conditions it like it tells you in the instruction manual.

Imagine a kitchen sink with two overflows one above the other - the top one (the charger) will never get wet because the bottom one (the reg/rec) is controlling the height of the water (the charge)""

 

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On the subject of the regulator/rectifier interfering with the float charger, though I freely admit I don't have the electrical knowledge to understand why that should be, I'd just point out that the previous battery lasted 8 years with this allegedly harmful charging routine. Similarly, my Dommie battery lasted nearly 11 years, and my Tiger 800 battery 7 years so far, and it wasn't new when I bought the bike. All have been on the CTEK charger in rotation. I don't believe 8 years is a short life for a motorcycle battery.

However, 16 months is, if Al is right in assuming a dead battery is the cause. But could there be other causes? I'm thinking starter motor brushes or commutator, for example, but I expect there are other possibilities. I need to find someone with a battery tester next, before chucking £100+ at a new premium battery.

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Since it fails on the first push of the button, then will likely start on the second, I suppose the obvious thing to try is a jump from a car battery on a cold morning. That'll tell you whether it's the battery or something else.
But it does sound like a battery on it's way out - looks like it's fully charged but not delivering enough juice. Can go on for many months like that before it calls it quits. Time to refit the kickstart, or practise bump starts.

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Your battery sounds fine. I have just changed the brushes in my Alton for the second time in 10 years. Petrol from tickled carbs can find it's way in and shorten brush life, a smear of silicone sealant can help on reassembly. Replacement brush sets are available on Ebay. Easy enough to check and change. Only other electrical issue I've had is cable coming loose on solinoid so no biscuits required only for the cuppa when the job is done :-)
Best regards, Al.

Sorry about the delay in continuing this thread but I've been riding/fettling my Dommie a lot and haven't had time to play with the Commando.

If you've changed your brushes twice in 10 years and I haven't changed mine once in nine years, maybe that's the answer. I searched eBay and came up with a Mitsuba starter brush plate - is that what you meant?
When you say solenoid, I presume you mean the relay that sits on top of the battery. It has a couple of wires that sprout flimsily out of the body of the thing and look as if they'd break off easily. They're okay on mine but I've cable tied them to the thick leads so they can't flap about and break.
I prevent petrol from dripping onto the starter with a chrome drip tray as used on BSA A7/A10s (I have a single carb).

I've heard about fake Yuasa batteries before, so maybe Motobatt would be the way to go if I do need a new one. I had the Exide tested at a garage that used a thing with two big sprung probes with a resistance and a meter between them, and it apparently held up quite well under load, but I'm not sure what the load was. So maybe not a conclusive test.

 

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I mentioned the relay as a potential problem due to the internal contacts taking the high amperage during starting procedures therefore arcing produces pitting and this in turn can lead to a high resistance between the two contacts.
If you can dismantle the solenoid it should be possible to emery the four  faces and clean them up sufficiently for you to start the motor and prove a point.
It goes without saying that all of the connections need to tight to and from the heavy  starter cables.

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ALTON NORTON COMMANDO ELECTRIC START CONVERSION MITSUBA STARTER - BRUSH PLATE from Nipponautomotive.
I have also replaced the solenoid (relay) with a generic Japanese one but also first check the thick cable connections haven't vibrated loose or corrosion hasn't worked it's way in there.
Your battery sounds fine.

Best regards, Al.

 



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