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Siamese exhaust

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Just about to order a  stainless system for my slimline 99  (inside frame) ,from Armours, has anyone had any experience  of these.?. Do  you finish up with a nice line or a droopy silencer?.

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Robert..I have had siamesed on my 88SS for the past 10+ years.  Finally swapped back to twin pipes. It now runs noticeably smoother, especially at motorway speeds.  I holed one piston a few years back and I suspect something out of balance with the carburation at high speed..about 70 on A3.

The inside junction between the side pipe and main tube had a restriction which might have caused it.

It was an expensive experiment I won't repeat.  Maybe the Norton original was better made.

Also...if stainless, this doesn't apply...but with chrome plating the part between the pipes as they come together doesn't take plating very well.

Last time I checked with Armours, the web site ordering system didn't say clearly which cylinder head they fit (later wider splayed like 650SS  or earlier like the 99), but a telephone call sorted that out.  They do (or did) both. Do they do stainless? They used not to.

Since Norton only used the siamesed for a short time, I wonder if they weren't as good as they claimed at first? They save the weight and cost of one silencer.

Mine did fit well. No droop.

 

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Morning David. I fitted a pair of chrome siamese  (from RGM)  about 25 years ago , Not a good fit then  and the chrome has gone  . I prefer the uncluterred primary area . They are a bit more rorty than twin pipes but I think provide a better mid range ( which is as far as I intend to go these days.)  The RGM set at least gave a little kick up to the silencer line . I am more interested in what the current offerring looks like (on a bike) and more to the point do Armours stand behind their product?  At  around £212  delivered I want to know what service they can provide if they don't fit.

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I can't help in that case. Mine are for the splayed head.

I see from my notes I fitted mine in April 2001.  It says mid range seemed better but slower top end. It reached 85mph on the clock which I seemed to think was a bit slow.   I can't remember riding that fast very often!

Also note says "it seemed more vibratory  especially at low revs".  Since then they have been off and on.

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It would be really nice to see  a photo of a bike with the system on. Would instill confidence that its going to look acceptable .  Would be good for sales.  Can't believe that a company that lives by its sales can't see that.

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i fit one to a 1960 99. it a lovely fit . you have to send the rose you want to fit I removed a norton 

Siamese system which had been on the bike for years. It needed re chroming still have it. The Armour one fit as good

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Slightly off tangent, but on the power gain/loss, does anybody have any objective experience in regard to balanced vs unbalanced pipes on Commando systems- I believe the relevant "correct" silencers have an effect?

Asking for a friend!

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This is my 650 fitted with a Siamese system, sorry you can't see the cross over well, I took the picture last Sunday at a Show.

The bike is not fitted with an ss head but the Siamese fitted OK. (Bit tight getting it in but clearance all round.

The bike has been together for about 12 years now, but I bought the system a few years before that, in anticipation before I even had the engine. I bought the system new in a sealed plastic clear bag at a local auto jumble, a lucky find. The chrome is failing around the cross over but otherwise fine. The head is single carb and I think that helps with other running issues.

Never tried a two pipe job on the 650 but I can tell you that my 1960 99 runs much smoother on two pipes, though the performance on both is very good.. (Both single concentric's, 930 on the 650)

I must update with more builds, but if you go to my vmcc site you can see the bikes in question by clicking on 'Neil's Norton Notes.  ne-vmcc.co.uk

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Dunstall in 'Norton Tuning' writes that the best arrangement "by far" is to have a balance tube across close to the ports. I've not the slightest idea if the Commando ones might fit a featherbed.

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Hi Neil,  Your 650 is a bit unusual in having the 1960 on  88/99  head.. This having the Ex ports at a shallower angle  but the same size valves as a 650 head. I think your siamese system is the same as my rusty set as I can see its got a very slight kick up under the kickstart. . I  think it most unlikely that a Dunstall two into one would fit this head David. When they built the 650 standard they used the Downdraught head with a special manifold which for the 650 DL  also had to contend with matching into the opening of the  88/99 deluxe panels  which they did not alter. This manifold must be a very rare item ( not the same as yours  Neil which is std for the 88/99). I am guessing that Neils bike was built up from parts. 

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Hi Robert,

Yes indeed, I bought the frame (1960 99) in 2008 to save it from being turned into a real bitza.

I bought the engine, a 64 650ss (Re sleaved) in Spring 2010, just a few months after I bought an 58 88 that was the original plan.The 88 is now in my just finished Dommie Racer (Apart from the Tacho not working right.

The head came with the engine, but something was a miss when running. I found some witness marks on the push rods and in the head. These were dressed and it all ewnt back together.. Still a bit noisy at tick over and low revs but now with just over 2000 miles on the clock the engine noise is quite acceptable. The mudguards are stainless and I have fitted Boyer electronic ignition and a power box with battery.

The SLS front brake has a home made air scoop and works well. Rear shocks are NJB.

As said, I struck it lucky with the 2-1.Brand new and not bad for 30 quid...Worth the gamble.

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Hi Robert,

Never had the barrels off so no way of knowing. (Only the head)

Then again the 99 barrels can be machined to fit a 650. Don't know about these...

But, the 650 is sounding better all the time. (I put it down to the none std head)

If it does pack up I will investigate.

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When I first partially rebuilt my 1959 99 in 1965, in my correspondence with the factory (Mr. Hudson I believe) said that the 99s, in particular, benefited from small-bore Siamese pipes with an SS silencer - so I fitted a set of inside-the-frame pipes, but a standard silencer.  I still don't know the difference between the silencers.  I have never tried the bike with twins, but it came as a poorly maintained bike with rotten silencer (?from Pride & Clarke), so the only way was up!

Due to one silencer being particularly rotted away, it had contributed to partially melting the piston on that side!  After it was up and running I discovered another fault that had also contributed to the melting - but that's a story for another day and a possible "Quiz" question!

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…look forward to the rest of the story Lionel.

 

Best regards

Jon

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Have you ordered the new pipes, Robert?

An observation...nickle plated pipes can avoid the permanent blackening in the event of overheating (e.g. from retarded exhaust).  It happened recently to a new nickle plated downpipe of mine...went black on the first outing, but polished out. (Careless with timing...).

I believe the darkening we are familiar with is due to the nickle oxidising, because the hard, thin layer of chrome is porous to oxygen.  The chrome then protects the oxide from being polished out (unless you polish so much that you remove the chrome). Obviously you can't do it very often....

So there doesn't seem to be much point in chrome on pipes anyway.  Armours will supply nickle plated at the same cost (it should be cheaper and less environmentally problematical).

Does anyone care to comment?  It's proved very difficult to find out exactly how the darkening happens. Even Wikipedia just says "because it's hot"...but we know that already.

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Hi David,   No ,I chickenned out at the last moment ! ,  Something to do with the slightly sneaky way the enquiry went to  an order  while I was still  in the  making my mind up  mode.  May enquire at my local platers about a re-chrome. 

Well, I spent all night finishing the rebuild's last touches but couldn't get it to start.  It fired occasionally, but wouldn't run.  It was coil ignition with the 18D2 Distributor so I checked and replaced the condenser, checked the gap and cleaned the points - again - checked the timing and valve clearances and by now it was around 5am.  We were supposed to go on holiday the next day to the Norfolk Broads  - from Southampton.  An arduous journey in 1964/5 with no motorways!  Anyhoo, it DID start eventually and ran as smooth as a sewing machine!  BUT - after a few minutes one exhaust pipe started glowing red - not a good sign, so I switched off.  I'd had enough so we hastily reorganised our transport plans for the 6 of us.  Two going up by train and two on two bikes as pillions.  After the hols I did a post-mortem starting from scratch - and I found  the problem, which was quite obscure, to say the least!  That was the first. Q1: What was it?

After I fixed it and once it was running well I decided to do a shakedown ride and set off late afternoon heading west.  No plans and bugger-all in the way of any kit, apart from the tools in the tool tray which were enough for a fairly major stripdown if needed., I got as far as Dorchester, around 10pm I think, and it started misfiring, getting progressively worse until it was unrideable. As I was trying to figure out what to do the police stopped by to see if I needed help (Yes - REALLY!)  I asked if they had an empty cell I could kip in for the night - they couldn't let me, but pointed me towards a bus shelter.  There was an old homeless chap already asleep on the bench.  Next morning it started OK, but I found a  bike shop and bought a new Dis cap just in case.  Those were the days when there was a shop in most towns.  I carried on heading west after fitting it and got to Liskeard before it happened again!  Found a B&B for the night.  OK next morning and set off west again - a glutton for punishment!  After several long stops letting it cool down again I got as far as Redruth after dark and then I discovered the problem!  I kipped in a new, partly built toilet block at the back of a petrol station (closed) and used empty cement sacks to cover me for a bit of warmth - although it was Summer it got cold at night!  When they opened the next morning I was able to buy the requisite parts from their shop so I was sorted for the rest of my journey to Land's End then back home.  If anyone has reached the end of this boring story - Q2: what do you think the problem was?

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It sounds like one cylinder running very hot ,  I'm guessing the right side ,only because if the left side runs very  hot it will usually seize solid due to oiling variences .   Perhaps a restriction in the exhaust pipe where the pipes join?.Other suspects would be unequal ignition or pre-ignition or a weak mixture on one side ( with twin carbs ) or an air leak on the manifold one side . A  tight exhaust valve guide/ seizing rocker/ cam follower another possibilities..

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My guess for number 1 is exhaust valve clearance lost?

But that wouldn't explain number 2, since they would have all been rechecked.  Not the pipe(s) because the local shop couldn't have been much help.  

Loose nut on inlet manifold?  Or even the internal Allen screw coming loose and falling into the inlet, and preventing inlet valve closing fully.  Next day you bought an Allen key?

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Hi Lionel

I've had a camshaft wear one exhaust lobe so no lift on that ex valve.

Result; glowing red exhaust, phosfor - bronze valve - seat melted onto piston [apparently "It can't happen"!!] and cylinder head, engine stopped [strangley!] chrono' speedo' showing 98mph at the time, travelling N on M1.

Cause; cam follower pair wrongly fitted so no oil getting to camshaft

Sorry for the delay - VERY busy!!

Robert - you are closest with the answer to Q1. (In spite of stating the obvious that the cylinder was running hot. LOL!)  After the hols I rechecked and found the points gap was 15 thou on one side, but only about 7 thou on the other = retarded ignition one side. When I was kid I remember my Dad's car boiling up on a family outing.  Retarded ignition was the problem. In the bleary hours of the morning I hadn't check both clearances and had obviously not done that before.  After the hols I discovered that, took the dissie off and straightened the shaft by hand - Simples!

A clue to the answer to Q2 was the fact that it was dusk heading to dark.  With the engine still running roughly, I could see violet sparks coming from the HT leads wherever they touched any part of the bike - paintwork too, as well as my hands!  Severe loss of voltage when the leads were hot - hence the increasing misfiring.  Sorted in the morning when the garage opened and I bought a length of new HT cable!  I had changed the plugs when I rebuilt (Champion N3s or N4s probably)  A lot of trouble for such a minor problem.  You live and learn eh?  I was only 18 - that's my excuse!

Later I replaced the distributor with the magneto from my old 1955 88.  I'd had a minor prang and got a decent offer for the frame from an IoM racer who was fed up with the Manx frames breaking at the rear upper loop.  I still have the engine - minus the timing side crankcase half, which was damaged.

Another contributor to the old, partly-melted piston was the rotten silencer on that side.  Virtually no baffle left so insufficient back-pressure side = running weak and hot.

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I bought siamese pipes for my 99SS about 5 years ago from Armours. I am very happy with the fit and finish.

In reply to by steve_marshall1

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Slightly off track, I know, but I have a 650SS with siamese pipes that have been on the bike for years (for a large period of time under a sheet in the garage), I have a 1960-62 vintage Norton-Burgess cigar shaped silencer which began life as a 'straight-through' design, being filled with sound-deadening material. I know it's incorrect for my 1966 machine, but I fell in love with the sound those silencers made when I had an 88 in the early sixties. The silencer is now more literally a 'straight through' item, the filling having been scattered to the four winds over the years. Does anyone know whether there are any silencers manufactured in this way today, or is it all baffeld kit now? 

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David Francis asks about sound deadening material.  Armours state on their website that they do not use it.  They say that it encourages the silencer to rot from the inside, due to condensation.  If our other suppliers get then from Armours, the same will apply.  But do they?

I bought a new early 30's 'silencer' last year, to use in town instead of a Brooklands can.  It is ridiculously loud and, being a bit smaller, it's a higher tone which makes it even worse.

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I had orriginal cigar silencers on my 61  88  and after a lot of  high speed work they left trails of fiberglass  behind.  They were relatively quiet up till then.  I have 4 other cigar units and they are not fitted with f/glass and are very rorty  and loud.  I have one fitted to a highly tuned single with lots of valve overlap ,its VERY loud.  I don't think any of the pattern replacements used absorption materials in them.

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In this day and age we now have noise monitors on trial, what next?

Perhaps the idea is to turn all vehicles into silent killers? Or perhaps, off the road!!!!!!!!!!

 


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