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I couldn't be happier...

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Good morning fellows!

I rode the Inter 12 miles around my neighborhood area this evening past. i couldn't be happier with how the old boy runs. 

Carburation is exactly what anyone could hope for, throttle response is immediate, acceleration is even in all throttle valve positions.  The motor pulls strong up to 50 mph, i didn't go any faster than that as the engine build is, as i am told, all new parts. 

The Tell Tale leak is what i would consider negligible.  I have the oil pressure release screw turned nearly all the way in; running around 3 psi at idle and around 7 psi at higher rpm. 

The leak out of the lower bevel housing is not that much and appears to only be on the front; i think i will smear a bit of three Bond at that joint and see if that slows it down a bit; on the other hand, nothing i can't live with for at least the time being. 

The gearbox shifts easily, of course deliberate and positive foot movement is what i would expect and not far akin from shifting characteristics of my '67 Royal Enfield Interceptor Albion box. 

David, i now understand your concern about the sound emitting from the Brooklands can.  People were out walking their dogs this evening, i was glad i didn't get any evil stares nor dogs lunging at their leashes... 

I'm not certain that the generator is charging...  When i turn on the lights, the ammeter shows an approximate 6v discharge.  I am thinking with lights on the ammeter should show at least "0" or a little more than an amp above "0"...? 

I've posted some pics of the Inter in front of my garage door.  The compact side stand is an item from RacingNorton, it bolts securely to the frame tube underneath the primary cover, only shows the end of the stand with easy to access with one's foot to swing it down.  First bike I've owned with 3 stands!

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The Ulster (with a Special Iron head) uses a Champion D6 plug . Would not be the right thread or grade for your Beastie, but you have got the idea.Riding these old creations puts one in a very different  time and place to the rest of the public. They will never know what they are missing.

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...or maybe getting closer.  The beast took me for a 26 mile ride today; really felt good to go that far!  After 20 miles, fouled the NGK B7ES.  So, i rode the remainder of the way home on a B6ES which i checked when i arrived home, it was fouled, but the engine was running well, so i suspicion more miles will foul it also...  We shall see.  I would describe the fouling as black, not the kind of "furry" black from too rich a fuel mixture.  And not dripping oil black.  The best way to describe the black is sort of a flat, glazed black.  So, i am going with the primary cause of fouling is oil... 

But, i also wonder if the cause of fouling is a combination of oil and air/fuel mixture...

So, thinking thoughtfully about options to decrease the fouling...  Until i log more miles to see if the B6ES survives, i have on order a couple B5ES plugs.  (B4ES plugs are also available, but going up 3 heat ranges seems like maybe tempting an ugly fate... Or not?)

Before i would go to a B5ES, i am wondering a couple other adjustments that might decrease fouling...

1.  The needle feed to the cylinder/piston skirt is set at 1/2 turn out from home.  Would it help (or risk hurt) if i turned the needle into 1/4 turn from home?  (Out of curiosity, could the cylinder be adequately lubricated if the needle was turned all the way home?)

2.  The main jet is 300 (310 is factory, sea level.  I am at 5,000 feet altitude).  i am inclined to leave the main as is, since, as we know, the main jet comes into play at fully open throttle.

3.  The needle is in the middle notch of 3 grooves.  Pulling under load, backing off fully open throttle just a little, i do have (not every time) what i consider a barely noticeable flat spot and occasionally a split-second tiny stagger.  But i have not logged enough miles to know if this begins happening only as the plug becomes more fouled.  (Right before the plug dies i have misfire and backfiring out the can).  All things considered, i am wondering if i should lower the needle, i.e., fit the clip in the top groove?

4.  Only want to change one thing at a time...  i suspicion the fouling is due to oil.  What are your thoughts on which i should adjust first?  (I don't know how far in i can turn that needle in without starving the cylinder of oil...)

5.  What brand of plugs are you fellows running?  I am thinking it would be a bit more ideal if a plug with glazed porcelain exists...?

Attached are a couple pics taken during today's ride.  I am thankful the engine starts first kick.

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I have had the same problems with two bikes . The culprit usually is a slightly worn needle jet  and gentle riding . Sometimes I would ride in a lower gear to put more heat into the plug just to get me home.  Idling at home with a slightly rich pilot  can soot up the plug which may never properly recover. Even expensive fine wire electrode plugs can fail. Find a very very  old plug till you get the settings right. A much too soft plug  could overheat and cause pre-ignition if  not riden gently. What fun ! .  Just sold a booring 150mph modern bike as it never went anywhere.

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...  i suspect riding too gently may be part of the issue.  As the engine is a new build, i don't want to get too rowdy.  As i was told by previous owner, new big end, valves, guides, piston, drive, pinion bearings, and more.

Will see how much longer the B6ES lasts...  Need be, moving to a B5ES will be worth at least one try as i am fouling plugs at the rate of 1 plug per about 20 miles. 

I do have one possible source that might have a Lodge or a KLG, but either if he has them, would be 60's era manufacture...  What numbers for these plugs should i be looking for?  (fwiw, the Rider's Book calls for a KLG L.K.S.5, probably find that a the hardware store :)  it seems the ticket is to find a glazed ceramic plug...??

i currently have a #17 pilot jet in the NEW Concentric Premier.  i suppose i could try a #15 to see what happens.  i don't think i do much idling, but as fickle as the beast seems to be, it's worth a try.  And i could drop the needle to the top notch to see what affect that could have.

What are your thoughts on turning the needle controlling oil to cylinder from 1/2 to 1/4 turn from home?

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the adjustment on rear cylinder spray is “…1/2 to 3/4 of turn from home or until a light haze appears on accelerations”. My manx spec machine runs a 1/4 turn.   

If your plug is fouling “Matt” you are not far off considering it’s a fresh build motor. Starting well suggests the pilot is in range.  Do you need choke to start?  

 I would get the motor running a bit hotter without stressing it.  Gentle acceleration, long overrun down the hills and good constant throttle setting runs on the level.   I use temperature strips from the electronics industry to observe the temperature attained on a trip.  We are not against F Frith on the mountain so the machines are getting a reasonably gentle life. And with modern oils and service levels they may take a bit more work to run in.   We are not talking oil deluge anymore ,  that’s  good news isn’t it.

 

best regards

Jon

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Remember the object of the exercise is to enjoy riding the bike, not to enjoy looking at how beautiful your spark plug is! If it starts easily and runs well and shows no desire to self destruct, you are on a winner.

My heavy over oiling issues were, I am sure, caused by over-gentle use in its early post rebuild life.  I thought Joe Craig told riders to thrash the machines because they have no sense or feeling...?

As I understand it (mostly from tech info and opinion on Green Spark Plug website) a plug running too hot may damage itself but won't cause the engine to run hot. Makes perfect sense.. how could it? Likewise a plug running too cold may collect oil but that won't hurt the engine either. So both you and I could fit hotter running plugs so they would burn themselves cleaner, but that won't affect how the engine runs. But we'd have prettier looking plugs to impress our friends with.

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David,

Your comment is almost right, but if you fit too soft/hot a plug and then subject it to running at higher loads, you will run the risk of pre ignition occurring as the plug can't get rid of the heat. Left to its own devices, PI will nibble at the pistons, eventually holeing them, cause valves to burn out or gaskets to blow. (or all 3!) None of them cheap to fix. Worst if all, PI isn't always audible so you may not know it is happening until it is too late and the damage is done.

Many racers used to use soft plugs to warm up their bikes then fit a hard plug for the race. It is much safer risking an oiled plug than the risk of PI.

An old 'rule of thumb' was to not go more than one heat range up or down from what the standard grade was unless you really knew what you were doing.

Regards, George 

...yes, we've got past the deluge, i do feel like we are making progress!

It makes sense that new rings in a newly built engine could be allowing oil past them into the combustion chamber.  Do you think that turning the needle in to 1/4 turn is ok and could decrease fouling, or should i leave it at 1/2 turn?  

No choke necessary, i tickle til i see moist and the engine starts almost always 1st kick.

I'm probably always too cautious during the break-in period...  We do have plenty of hills, two with beastly grades but can still pull in 4th gear, so this should help the rings seat in.  For rpm's, i'm going by how i hear the engine respond to throttle and also varying rpm's.

i have not heard of temperature strips, i do have a heat gun though.  To me, the engine does not seem to run hot, but on the other hand it is plenty warm, again what i'd expect from a new engine.  What temps do you expect on a new build and on an engine that's broken in?

i am going to try a B5ES, but not make a habit of running them any distance and the way it is fouling plugs in approximately 20 miles, i doubt pre-ignition would be a problem.  i guess i just need to persevere, such as i have been doing all along and if my improved track record is any indicator, things should continue seating in.

Wish you fellows lived next door... (:

...i believe your suggestion is one i shall heed, the engine shows no signs or makes no sounds of self-destruction.  I tend to be a little light on the throttle with new builds, so i will be a bit more on the open side and then give it a bit of a break.  We're going to have lots of cooler weather for the next 2 months, we usually lose our moderate temps around the first of November, usually we have scintillating Autumn seasons.

I'm wondering if i should go back to the like original cigar shaped silencer...  To my way of thinking, the Brooklands would have less restrictive flow; my logic tells me less restrictive would create a leaner condition.  On the other hand, the cigar-shaped silencer would tend to restrict flow flow and a richer condition. Everything i've read about the 14.7:1 AFR creates the highest operating temp, and leaning or richening decreases operating temps.  i could go on by overthinking this, so unless anyone has a definite answer i should stay with "the can" or go with "the cigar," i guess what i will do is keep logging miles and see if i get more mileage between plugs fouling...

...for reinforcing that old rule of thumb.  The limited mileage i am logging (around < 25 miles), i think i will try a B5ES for at least one outing just to see if a warmer plug might could make a difference.  Thankfully, plugs are about $2.50 each, so it's not going to break the bank if i go through a number of plugs as the engine breaks in, hopefully to the point of the rings seating in and less oil getting past them as the miles accrue...  

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Thought you guys might like to see the attached chart. 

Also, i found KLG FE75's which are a B6ES equivalent, as per noted in this link >>>  https://www.matchlessclueless.com/mechanical/ignition/klg-spark-plugs/

Interestingly enough, the Instruction Manual calls for a KLG "L.K.S.5" plug.  The attached chart calls for a KLG H53.  The chart also lists the L.K.S.5 for the Ariel Square 4 which apparently is the Lodge C14 or Champion H10; neither of these plugs are long reach type.

Pretty much striking out on The Green Spark Plug site.

Finding a number of new old KLG FE75's on ebay.  And one FE80 which cross references to B7ES.  Maybe the porcelain is glazed on these...?

 

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Took the Inter out for a little under 3 mile ride, itching to see what change a #15 pilot would do.  Idle and pulling away in 1st gear, i'm not sure i notice any appreciable difference except when underway is a now and then banging in the exhaust and an occasional light fart out the back...  My short ride was to see if a smaller pilot might effect an undesirable change in throttle response at and just off idle and as it has not, so i am staying with the #15 at least for the time being.  I did pull the Champion to see what it looked like, it is fouling; after i log some more miles will see how the Champion fares

The highly oil absorbent fabric i previously placed under the cam box is saturated to the point that two big drops of oil were atop the primary cover.  I'll report back to let you know how the Champion (B7HS cousin) holds up and need be will go with the next warmer plug. 

After dirtying its diaper after logging 40 mile miles prior to putting it in, i have concluded most likely the cam box needs to be removed to address the unnatural leaks coming from somewhere related to the cam box.  i've cut a larger diaper in preparation for another go.  Looks like removing the cam box is relatively straightforward...?

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...cloth covered HT wire i'm running on my '27 JD.  After scraping a sort of coating on  the strands of the wire i removed, they are copper.  Googled "CC7N spark plug wire" and what i am reading, the strands are tinned copper.  What are you fellows using for HT wire?  I'm going to try all the simple things i can think of including logging more miles in an attempt to see if the changes i make decrease plug fouling.  Will see how the Champion iholds up before i go to the next warmer plug which i suspect will be in the works.

.

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I'm not certain I follow your worries about the plug. If you take it out at home, it will have become fouled up to some extent by the slow running which is almost inevitable before you cut the engine unless you live beside an open road where you can do a plug chop from wide throttle. Looking at the plug is a means to an end.. it's appearance tells you something about the engine but now we don't have leaded fuel it's much more difficult to be certain exactly what the plug is showing.

And leaky cam box..I try always to remember to carry a small towel (have you read "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"?).  If you have a huge  well lit, heated shed and months of winter snow then why not try to improve it? But lots of men have tried and few have succeeded. Apparently, Strickland (of this parish) tests them for leaks in a water bath.  I suspect they might be improved with Teflon or acetyl plastic seals or something of the sort, but even then the valve stem lubricant is bound to be blown out of the exhaust valve guides. Norton left them exposed so the hairsprings could be changed by the roadside during a race and only lose a minute or so. Racers weren't concerned about the filthy oil all over the machine provided that they won the race.

The trouble really starts with the perfect storm...a leaky engine plus castor oil which cannot be wiped off. You are using modern oil, so you just need to carry that towel. And steer clear of white trousers.

...your humor is delightful!  Your comments on modern gas are not new to me,"reading" the plug is an old habit i can't seem to give up...  You are correct on chopping the throttle while fwo, so thanks for the reminder; that one slipped by me...

Your comments on cam box removal are well taken, nothing i am jumping into any time soon...  The fellow i bought the bike from said he "fabricated polyurethane seals" and did caution me that they "will work for 200 or 300 miles, hopefully more."

In an earlier life, i had a collection of "green 'un's" and "blue 'un's" and remember seeing pictures of the riders oil soaked leathers...

You must have quite a supply of rags, what are the best rags you recommend... (:  At least for a longer while, i plan to keep changing the Inter's diapers; not rushing into removing the cam box and the more i hear, i may be less inclined to do so...  However the the shaft tube leaks as well, so...  The IoE H-D twins are notorious leakers, however the four engines i've built, the leaks are negligible.

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Logged 24 miles on the KLG FE75.  Came back and pulled the KLG, compared it to the NGK B7ES that quit working at 21 miles.  Whereas the NGK is a satin black, the KLG is a flat black and perhaps a lighter black at that, so this tells me the warmer KLG may be clearing contaminants a bit better and perhaps the porcelain is more resistant to fouling.  To date, i have logged 78 total miles.  Will keep logging miles...

I am surprised how quickly the International hustles up to 60 mph.  And, how it gets on the cam and has a delightful surge of acceleration.

The high-absorbent replacement fabric under the cam box and around the intake stem does a good job of sopping up the oil, so no deluge.

I wish i could see in person all the different parts that make up the cam box so i could understand what is supposed to leak, what can be prevented from leaking, slowed from leaking and no leaking at all. i have captured what pictures i've found of cam box parts. In my ignorance, i have a difficult time believing a deluge is normal...  And the vertical shaft tube should not leak...?

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Windless. Sunny.  74' F (21' C).  Took the Inter out for a 15 mile ride.  So far i have 39 miles without fouling the KLG FE75, so this is encouraging.  The tips of electrodes are a slightly lighter shade of black and the ceramic is not shiny with oil. i honestly think the Inter would go 90 mph.  2nd and 3rd gear the engine really has a "hit" when it "gets on the cam" and it easily reaches 65 mph surprisingly quickly.  The Inter clearly performs from its racing heritage.  It reminds me of my DBD34 i rode when i was a kid.  As long as i keep high-absorbent pads under the cam box, the leaking is manageable.  I'm going to keep changing the diapers until i log at at least 250 miles to familiarize myself more and know that everything is solid and a bit more run in.  At some future date i will pull the cam box and try my best to diminish the leaks somewhat.  A gorgeous bike such as the International should not have to leak like mine does...  Also, i went back to the #17 pilot jet in the Premier carb and banging in the exhaust is gone.

on another note, how much vibration do you guys experience through your handlebars?

Also, from which model Norton with a folding kick start lever will fit the International?

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From your description of the plug it sounds like you  are  getting reduced levels of oil burning ,probably the rings are beginning to bed in. A ring of matt carbon round the plug mouth  is normal . I try to avoid idling  on my return from a ride  to keep the plug clean for the next start-up. It would be nice to be able to see right down to the bottom of the insulator ,but  I'm not into cutting up a good plug. Sounds like the honeymoon can start.

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Steve get as much mileage under your belt as you can before the weather turns.  The leaks may   subside a little (as long as the fixings  are secure - keep checking), but  more importantly the motor will bed down and gas seal better.  I  cant find any diagrams that show the principle of sealing other than the parts books and some pictures from George Cohen's blog ( Mailed  previously). 

The cam box in sealed either end of the cam by closing plates and paper gaskets.  The Rockers protrude out through the sides of the box but their  needle  roller bearing drums that they oscillate around, seal against rubber/canvas wipers pressing against the top and bottom of the "drum"; lower ones adjustable via pressure from the square drive lock nutted screws below.

This screw acts on a stiff metal gib plate between the screw and the seal, pushing against the bottom length of the seal therefore applying more pressure on the top surface which runs against the bearing drum.  Needless to say these need to be a good clean outer surface the rubber with canvas insert need to be stiff but with a good sealing property.  When adjusted correctly you  will hardly be able to turn the cam. 

The only other escape route from the cam box is via the valve stem feeds which you have gone through previously and the drive shaft tube nuts. Oil return route for your engine is via the drive shaft tube, which leaks.... not normally a big issue from there, unless the oil is not returning easily. 

 There are two perforated collars in the build up of the tube, one larger than the other; the larger at the bottom to allow the oil to flow away.  Below the lower bevel drive is a filter bolt (drilled and slotted affair which often needs a thin wall socket to undo).  Guess you have been in there and found it to be clear. 

With you felts in place on the cylinder head (I also use foam rubber in the centre of the springs which can be quickly removed and squeezed) a short journey with  your immaculate engine should show the source of the flow.  Mine doesn't leak badly though I  do carry a rag in a plastic bag,

More running and photos of the engine on return would help....

 

 Best  wishes

 

Jon  

 


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