Skip to main content
English French German Italian Spanish

From where should an International not leak oil...?

Forums

A brief word to those already initiated and wise...  If you want to get to the sole purpose of this thread, please skip to the bottom of this missive to the last two short paragraphs followed by my questions so as to save yourself time and relieve yourself of the burden of my attempts at humor...

Otherwise...  Forewarned is forearmed.  I cannot resist sharing my curiosity aloud any longer.  And I want to try to have fun with this topic by exhibiting some sense of humor around this subject that's so well shocking me... 

I've recognized and accepted and am immersing myself in the rich history by which many International machines have become a mix of parts resulting from their storied and illustrious racing careers, the joys and sorrows the International has given the countless many before us and the ravages of time that can exact its cruel toll on our beloved 80+ year old motorcycles.  In fact, I am looking forward to learning with a somewhat morbid curiosity what Chris Streather's certification will reveal and what more questions I will have from engine and frame numbers I've submitted that may offer some information offering some more clues about my International. (My "morbid curiosity" rises from having practiced as a registered nurse for 48 years).

When I purchased my International, the seller warned me that "It is a fact of life that International's leak oil."  I have to admit that I am in a state of gobstruck awe of the amount of oil my '37 leaks seemingly from any and every joint and opening that the engine and gearbox have.  (That's a slight bit of an exaggeration, but not far off from the truth, and please remember I  am  trying to put what humor I have to its best use). 

My International puts my '67 R.E. Interceptor (also affectionately known by some as the Royal Oilfield) to shame for the amount of oil that's leaking out of  my  International.  I remember as a youngster, when Japanese bikes were well into making their debut hearing from old timers how they didn't leak oil like British motorcycles.  My first British bike when I was 17, being a '67 BSA Lightning, the little amount of oil that it leaked made me doubt the veracity of these old timer's comments.  And my '74 Commando I bought new in in April 1974, leaked  no  oil (nor does the '74 i restored leak oil) so the old timers  had  to be exaggerating.   Both of my 1927 H-D JD's that I've built literally leak a mere drop or two regardless of the number of miles they are ran or how long they sit.  I thought I had a pretty sturdy constitution when it comes to motorcycles leaking oil, but my Inter has raised the bar and is shivering me timbers, matey's...  When a well-intended Norton Facebook member told me to wear black pants when I ride my International, I thought...  "Yaah."  "Right..."  "That's only an affectionate exaggeration on your part in a cheerful attempt to humor me..."  "Good for you to wear black trousers, not me..."  Thankfully, I've been wearing black jeans for decades and have several pair on hand.  Forewarned  is  indeed forearmed.   Having owned a number of British pre-unit singles in my earlier life did not prepare me for my present day International ownership.  I expected to see  some  oil leakage from places International's are known to leak, but not the amount that seemingly rivals the blowout of an oil well.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGoKmemlfoo&ab_channel=MikeVickers 

To those who skipped to here, please read the following...  (:   

The most distressing leaks are at the bottom and top of the bevel drive housings and the vertical shaft tube itself.  I literally can watch the oil slowly seep out from those joints.  Earlier this evening, having read here in "Models" that the International "...sadly received virtually no development beyond 1936." (and) "Nothing was done to improve its poor reputation for oil leaks either; owners had to seek their own remedy."  Ouch!  Having read this in our club site, I am more of a believer and still somewhat of a skeptic that an International should leak oil as well as mine does.  Since my 3 mile test ride Sunday last, I have been hearing sounds from my curious self such as, "Huh..."  "Hmm..."  "Huh..."

Looking in my '37 and '46 Spare Parts Lists, having always thought that this Yank was pretty clever interpreting the intended meaning from descriptions made in the British vernacular, right about now, I'm feeling quite humbled.  In the both Spares Lists I see the terms such as "packing washer," "housing washer," "paper washer," and "cover washer." 

Are some of these "washers" metal shims and others paper gaskets?  I fear to deduce; therefore I humbly defer to your experience and wisdom.

Might  these upper and lower housings have paper gaskets fitted?  And/or a metal shim aka "washer?"  (I ask this because I note in the '46 Spares Lists there are 2 items  depicted  appearing as perhaps a paper gasket or metal shim for the housings and only one of these items is given a number to reference the part number and description of the part).

Does the top and bottom "rubber ring" for the vertical shaft tube perform its intended use well?  (As it is, beautiful golden oil runs down the tube like a rivulet formed from melting snow in the warmth of springtime sun).

All jocularity aside, where should the Inter engine  not  leak from? 

Or...  Are these leaks another one of the features of International ownership that I shall endear and adjust myself to?  If so, then no big deal, I shall do it!  (I'm too dumb to give up so easily).

Permalink

Is the brass part that is spring loaded onto the end of the crankshaft.

I don’t have the books in front of me so terminology varies. If you look at the engine oil pump side where feed of oil FROM the tank goes to the highest connection on the crankcase.

The return oil comes from the lower of the connections on the crankcase TO the tank.  Your tank connection may be in in a different location but the return is the one where you monitor the flow back into the tank.

If you unscrew the packing gland (two slots) pop a suitably sized washer in there to compress the stuffing you may get some control of the leak.

There is no problem removing the hollow bolt across the back of the piston.  Just put it back nice and tight after you have taken out the tell tale. 

I’ll put a call in today for the springs.  What about crush washers and rubber seals for the cam drive tube?  Michael is absolutely right Niels book is a fantastic aid.

I’ll attach some samples of his beautiful work.

Attachments

your picture is why i asked the question about feed line being top or bottom because in both the '36 and '38 Instruction Manuals the sketches clearly 'depict' the "delivery" line of OHV on top -and- "delivery" line of OHC on bottom.

All my whining in previous posts about not having enough room to fit a ball valve is because i thought the "delivery" line from oil tank connected to top fitting... The small ball valve i have will fit handily on the lower hose.

Permalink

Not sure if it was mentioned or not, but make sure your engine has correct one way breather (a2/707) on drive side near engine sprocket installed properly.  Mr. Norman’s site has it for sale and discusses the operation of the part.

Good Luck

Permalink

Ok, Jonathan!

Brass “quill,” got it!  What is the "Niels diagram" ?

Ok.  Back to the conversation at hand; my attempt at removing the Tell Tale.  That threaded steel piece (hollow bolt) is solidly threaded into the crankcase.  I tried my Yankee ingenuity to remove it, it seems solidly in place.  If I had a second nut, I would attempt turning the piece out.  Not a part one wants easily buggered with pliers of any sort.  So, at least for the time being I’ll put a suitably sized washer atop the packing and otherwise leave the Tell Tale as is.

I have the cylinder oil metering screw set at one-half turn out from closed.

As i write this, i am on RacingNorton, and i see Paul sells both the springs for big end oiling and cam oiling.  The springs are two different part numbers, 0245 A11/16 for the pressure release ball -and- 0081 A11/14

Jonathan, I’ll await news from you about your sourcing the springs and 7/32" ball. (my local outlets only carry 3/16" and 1/4")  If you still want to kindly order the crush washers and rubber seals (not expected) for the tube, thank you.  I’ll certainly be more than happy to remit the funds; paypal?   I’m not sure when I will remove the cambox, but it will be done.

I bought Niels Schoen’s book, I can only imagine how stunningly revealing it will be.

So, that’s all for now…

 

Permalink

You could as a last resort stop up the oil pressure tell-tail. The race bikes did not have it. It was probably provided to reassure owners who were used to seeing the reassuring sight of oil dripping behind the glass window of the Best and Lloyd total loss oil pump. Later bikes lost them anyway.  But perhaps can't do it unless you can withdraw that tube. Possibly loctited in place!

Permalink

yeah, that's what it feels like, Loctited in.  I noted Racing Vincent sells the nut, so if i decide to buy that nut I'd have 2, then i probably could get that threaded tube out...

Permalink

I've got the parts coming Steve, May take a few days this side and obviously US Post to  you  PM   me you address.

 

Cheers

Jon

Permalink

I have all, bar the crush washers which will be here soon. Can send the ball and springs etc to get you going.

You got email working now?  

Cheers

Jon

In reply to by jonathan_newton

Permalink

Hi Jon,

i'm not sure i know how to find messages you might have pm'd me...  i sent you a couple pm's with my contact information, i don't know if you received them and if you replied i'm not sure where to look for them.  i asked on "Website Suggestions" but managing the pm function still alludes me.

my email is sandcast232@outlook.com i don't know if you can see it in my profile or details or not.

Permalink

... email to your address. From another address .  Let’s see how that works.

Cheers

Jon

In reply to by jonathan_newton

Permalink

... email address sandcast232@gmail.com  or again, sandcast232@outlook.com

Permalink

Outlook yahoo and gmail combinations to your addresses.

Lets see what that produces.

Cheers

Jon

Permalink

Steve. This is the best Norton book I have ever found. I have all the books listed previously and this is by far the best. Although it is aimed at post war Nortons the Inter engine never changed very much in its nearly 30 year production run. Good luck with your problems and remember Nil Desperandum!

Permalink

...thanks for the referral on Garrat's text.  I've done an internet search including Ebay UK and come up empty.  I would appreciate any suggestions where I might look to source this book.  I did a "saved search" on UK and USA ebay, i see a couple copies sold within the last 2 months.

Interestingly enough, the book by E. M. Franks (which i have) carries the nearly same title in my internet searching for Garrat's book, "a practical guide covering all standard models from 1948."  However, Frank's book is titled on the inside cover, "a practical guide covering all standard models from 1932"...

Kind regards.

 

Permalink

Just don't turn a working bike into a basket case! The Inter is a leaky design whatever you do. I made an attempt at cleaning mine yesterday and found yet another breather tube I never knew was there (vertically down from somewhere at the back of the crank case). Also mine drips from the front down tube. I think that's caused by the exhaust valve lubricator overflow, dribbling down the barrel.  And the gearbox has an inexhaustible thirst even though it never drips when I watch it.

Be thankful you aren't using castor oil. That bakes on permanently. If anyone knows a solvent to remove the spots from the silencer  I would be grateful to hear of it.

…I certainly will not turn the bike into a basket case!  (:

Having never been around an Inter upon being parked after a good run much less seen one in person until I got mine, I have no baseline to form any evaluation from the oil leaks (actually a flow) I’m seeing come from mine.  So, I am very much depending on the experience you folks share and reflect on what each of you say along with reading the literature and going through the different websites to further familiarize myself with the machine.  I am very contemplative, methodical and step-by-step procedure oriented anytime I work on a machine, especially so on anything unfamiliar to me.  And, I know to make only one change at a time when troubleshooting to evaluate for cause and effect.   

To date, with the help of you folks I have discovered that the spring pushing against the plunger that controls oil flow to the crank pin is not only broken and the coils way too thick making the spring very stiff.  And the spring-loaded ball controlling oil to the cam was ¼ inch and not 7/32 inch nor do I know if that spring is the correct one since the springs in these oil delivery passageways apparently are similar if not perhaps the same in appearance.  Once I have those springs replaced with the correct diameter ball in place, then setting the oil pressure at 8 psi, I intend to ride the machine to see how things go.  I also have a ball valve installed in the delivery line, oil has now been in the tank for several days with the valve closed and there is no oil filling the pan, so I feel like that is a major step forward.

The only other thing I will work on to resolve is the gas dripping from the float bowl once things are back together before I ride the machine any distance.  After, that I’ll determine what, if anything, is that I might need to address next.  I am ok with oil drips and leaks but not watching oil actively flowing from different parts of the engine running; I have two 1927 H-D JD’s I built from scratch and my ’67 Royal Enfield Interceptor with its leaks that I accept as part and parcel of running  such engine designs.  On the other hand, if it is normal for oil to flow out of the engine when it’s running, then I will live with that, but from everything I am hearing, oil flowing from the engine should not be the case. 

Permalink

There is nothing about a cammy Norton that makes it any worse than any other open valve gear machine of its day. Built correctly you can ride them in a day suit. It’s just management of what emanates from the valve gear. The parts for step one are packed and await the address Steve.  Pmail me please and it will be dispatched.

 

Best Regards

Jon

Permalink

There weren't many other open valve gear machines by the mid 30's, were there? And I doubt if there were any in the 50's. But most of the spits of oil end up on the machine, not me.

 


Norton Owners Club Website by 2Toucans