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Pazon 6v for Jubilee

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Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at August 16. 2018

Just got my 1964 Jubilee together with oil and petrol tank fitted. I see a fat spark on both cylinders but I cannot for the life of me get it to fire. I timed the ignition with a timing disc and I thought I was spot on - clearly not.

In frustration I have bought a new Pazon 6v electronic ignition system that should be delivered by the weekend.

Is there anything to watch out for when fitting the Pazon?

I have a new, modern rectifier, new battery, new coils and new wiring loom.

 

Many thanks,

Dennis

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by patrick_mullen at August 16. 2018

Hello Dennis,

If you have a big fat spark on both cylinders why are giving up getting it running.  Obviously something else is wrong and electronic ignition will not by itself cure that .  Are you sure you are timing it on the correct cylinder on the firing stroke? Try swopping over the plug leads and it might fire up first time. Are you sure it is getting fuel ?.

I have never fitted a Pazon ignition so can't help on this but it just might immediately cure your problem as I think electronic ignitions work on the wasted spark principle - the standard points do not, so they have to have the correct plug to the correct cylinder.

Patrick

By the way the level plug plug hole on the primary chain case is the one very low down with a screwdriver headed plug.

 

 

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at August 16. 2018

Patrick,

Call OPEC, I may have created an oil shortage! I can't believe I got this so wrong. At least I will have a lot of spare oil when I drain the chain case.

As for the points, I think it is a timing issue that I can't work out. The whole set up is worn out and although I used a timing disc to set the points and even a dial gauge to work out TDC there still seems to be a lot of margin for error. According to the manual the points need to fire "within 2 degrees" of the recommended setting to work.

I might be able to get the engine to start using the points set up but I would rather eliminate any mechanical wear issues with electronic ignition.

You are correct that it could be a fuel problem but the carb has been fully restored with new internals. I even tried small amount of fuel down the barrel and swopped the HT leads over in desperation; not a sign of firing.

As a crude indicator, the respective plug sparks at about TDC but that could still be too far out to get fuel ignition. I'll keep trying.

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by Dan Field at August 16. 2018

I agree if you have a fat spark all you need is compression, fuel and a spark at the right time. My jubilee is a really easy starter and was even with the timing way to far advanced!

Dan

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at August 16. 2018

Something that still bothers me is that the points cam can seemingly fit two ways, 180 degrees one way or the other as it slots onto a shaft. Also, unless I am mistaken, the aforementioned shaft is just an interference fit onto the timing pinion. Perhaps I made a mistake when assembling the shaft onto the timing pinion?

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by patrick_mullen at August 16. 2018

Dennis,

I get the feeling that you are not very familiar with points ignition so best to start from scratch again.  The ignition timing does not have to be super accurate just to get the engine started.  You mention 2 degrees but this figure only refers to getting each cylinder as close as possible of each other. I am pretty sure that the cam will only fit in one position. The shaft is a taper fit into the camshaft so only place it into position to start and do not tighten up the bolt just yet.

The easiest way of timing is using the static method;

Set the engine with the pistons on TDC and the valves in the timing side cylinder head both closed, and rotate the engine backwards 10 deg. as indicated on a degree plate attached to the mainshaft. With the engine in this position rotate the cam in a clockwise direction until the topmost pair of points just commence to open. Fit and tighten securing bolt and washer. Now set the points gap to .012".

Now when you have it running you can check the timing with a strobe light and ensure the timing is advancing properly as you rev the engine.  From memory the Jubilee timing is 32 deg. fully advanced. But double check this when you have it running.

Patrick

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by paul_standeven at August 16. 2018

Have you made sure that it's firing on the right stroke?  Take the valve covers off, you want it to fire when the valves are shut.  If it's the wrong way round, swap the HT leads or the low tension leads.  Probably better to swap the low tension leads.

Paul

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at August 17. 2018

Thanks both. Patrick you are correct that I am not familiar with the points set up!

I'll follow your instructions and see how it goes and let you know.

Regards,

Dennis

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by Alan Osborn at August 19. 2018

Pazon 6V system?? Several questions here, the BB twin cylinder electronic ignitions, and Pazon for that matter use 2X 6V coils in series with a 12V supply. So a 6V supply might need 2X 3V coils? (funny thing is I actually have some of these) but they are NOT your usual stock item. So do they use 2X 6V coils in series or a fancy coil of some sort? Then there is the 6V, as the battery charge regulation is somewhat crude on the 6V system (Wipac and Lucas) the battery voltage can easily rise high enough to damage 6V ignitions. As pointed out by Boyer B, so have Pazon cured this issue with regard to 6V ignitions? Could be a nest of worms here.

But as said above if you have a spark then going electronic won't be an answer.

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at August 20. 2018

Hmmm, Pazon make no mention of problems with the charging system. The wiring diagram and instructions show the two 6V coils linked in series.  A lead goes from one coil + side to the - side of the other coil.

Fitting the Pazon was not too difficult but the spark is not as strong as with the contact breakers but it may be enough. I need to investigate further.

My main complaint is that the electronic disc is a poor fit in the rotor housing. It is supposed to be secured at 12 and 6 o'clock (as for the contact breaker plate) but the cut-away slots are not even close. I used the pillar screw holes at 3 and 9 o'clock to hold it in place by filing some new slots in the plastic and moved the pillar screws that hold the cover plate to the 12 and 6 o'clock positions - seems to work.

Timing is a doddle. Set engine to TDC, rotate engine to +30 deg and align the red dot on the new rotor with the hole in the electronics plate. Job done.

The story does not end there. I had not noticed that the carb is not the right one! It is a 376/36 not the specified 375/43.  The bore is slightly larger than it should be but the jets are all the same as the 375. I am hoping that carb will useable as it is in good condition and new 375 is nearly £200.

The carb has a sticking float needle so a new one is on order.

I'll give an update in due course.

Dennis

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by graham_squires at August 20. 2018

Previously Alan Osborn wrote:

Pazon 6V system?? Several questions here, the BB twin cylinder electronic ignitions, and Pazon for that matter use 2X 6V coils in series with a 12V supply. So a 6V supply might need 2X 3V coils? (funny thing is I actually have some of these) but they are NOT your usual stock item. So do they use 2X 6V coils in series or a fancy coil of some sort? Then there is the 6V, as the battery charge regulation is somewhat crude on the 6V system (Wipac and Lucas) the battery voltage can easily rise high enough to damage 6V ignitions. As pointed out by Boyer B, so have Pazon cured this issue with regard to 6V ignitions? Could be a nest of worms here.

But as said above if you have a spark then going electronic won't be an answer.

I agree totally with Alan here. I have the original 6v wiring loom and points. I had a slight intermittant untracable fault on my lighting circuit  and lights either worked or not with fiddling. No matter I am using the bike during the day. When I used the bike at night everything was fine until the intermittant fault occured on the move my lights went super bright and blew all of them. If this had occured with electronic ignition I am sure it would not have liked it. I will only use electronic ignition when I go 12volt ,the wiring loom is simpler,( less prone to faults) and better regulation.

GRAHAM

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by george_smart at August 21. 2018

Previously dennis_thompson wrote:

Just got my 1964 Jubilee together with oil and petrol tank fitted. I see a fat spark on both cylinders but I cannot for the life of me get it to fire. I timed the ignition with a timing disc and I thought I was spot on - clearly not.

In frustration I have bought a new Pazon 6v electronic ignition system that should be delivered by the weekend.

Is there anything to watch out for when fitting the Pazon?

I have a new, modern rectifier, new battery, new coils and new wiring loom.

 

Many thanks,

Dennis

 

Hi Dennis,

The Pazon is easy to fit but securing the electronics box is not that easy.

On my Navigator, I used a pad of industrial, self adhesive "velcro" and attached the box into the pressed steel rear spine component.  Make sure that the cables from the box are downward facing. (UK weather) Although this allows for future easy removal, if you get it right, you will probably never have to remove it.

Best wishes

George Smart.

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at August 21. 2018

George S, thanks, for now I have just attached mine with tie wraps to the frame tube under the tank but thinking about it the unit could get too hot above the engine, if I ever get it started that is!

Graham, you may be right but my mechanical contact breaker system was probably too worn to run well. I have a new wiring loom, new battery, new rectifier/voltage regulator combination, H4 headlight bulb and an in-line fuse. I'll just have to see how it goes.

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at August 26. 2018

It lives!

My Jubilee fired up today. It took a long time to get the Pazon set up in the contact breaker space and get the carb close to the correct set up as it has been stripped and cleaned. Not quite there yet as the Pazon needs fine tuning with a strobe but at least I know it works.

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at September 14. 2018

It died!

Seems like dire warnings about Pazon may be correct. I ran my bike for five minutes to warm it up and then stopped the engine. The bike would not restart and it seems that the ignition module may have packed up. Could be an expensive five minutes!

Pazon were closed for two weeks so they did not respond to my email about a possible faulty unit until this week. They were however candid and indicated that they had: "..a bad batch of some [ignition] modules manufactured between February and August."

I am waiting to see if they will provide a replacement FOC.

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by patrick_mullen at September 14. 2018

Hi Dennis,

I've just noticed your earlier posting about wiring the existing 6V coils in series. You also mentioned a weak spark.  Now you say the system is dead.

Now I am not an auto electrician (as Al O might rightly point out) so I could be totally wrong but I think your wiring is for a 12V system.  So did you convert to 12V ? Maybe you only have a flat 6V battery that can't provide enough power to fire the 12V coil.

Patrick.

 

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at September 15. 2018

Patrick, thanks for the comments. No the wiring is 6v as per the Pazon wiring diagram. The  6v coils are in series. The battery is new and fully charged. It is definitely a failure of the ignition module because it can be tested with a 'static test' i.e. shorting out the contact breaker wires should produce a spark and it does not.

The spark with Pazon looked weaker than the one produced by the conventional contact breaker set up but the bike did fire up so the spark with Pazon must be 'adequate'. I got a big fat white spark using points but the Pazon spark was less bright but blue in colour. Perhaps that's no bad thing.

If Pazon do not replace the module FOC I will revert back to points; reversing the set up is straightforward.

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by patrick_mullen at September 15. 2018

Hi Dennis,

 

It was the reference to "6V coils wired in series" that made me wonder.  When you wire two 6V batteries in series you get a 12v battery; hence I expected that two 6V coils wired in series would equal a 12V coil.- which doesn't sound compatible with a 6v electric supply.  Anyway you have followed the Pazon wiring instructions and I would expect that Pazon will stand by a warranty claim without any quibbles.

My only experience with a faulty electronic ignition was a Boyer Bransden unit a good few years ago on a previous Jubilee.  The soldering on the points plate failed.  I was seriously impressed with the BB back-up services as I received a replacement points plate by return post.  I do hope that you can report the same level of service from Pazon.  It restores your faith in human nature when people do the honourable thing.

Good luck.

Patrick

 

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at September 22. 2018

It lives again!

Pazon sent me as replacement ignition module free of charge that arrived yesterday. I wired it up today and fired up the engine.

I am hugely grateful to Andy at Pazon for their 'no quibble' attitude.

On another note.  I used a strobe to see if I could check the ignition timing via the contact breaker plate r rather than via the alternator side.

Pazon state that the timing is correct if you set the engine to 32 degrees before TDC and align the red dot on the magnet with the hole in the contact breaker plate.

Out of curiosity I wondered if I could see the red dot through the hole with the engine running using a strobe and it worked. Furthermore, when I revved the engine the dot still stayed centred in the hole indicating that auto-advance is working.

Of course I still need to check that I have set the timing at 32 degrees using the strobe on the alternator side (I have set up a pointer and marked the alternator magnet at TDC and -32 degrees). But as I set up the electronic ignition timing using a timing disc on the alternator side and I am expecting no surprises. No harm double checking though.

Dennis

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by Alan Osborn at September 24. 2018

Question-Although I have never done it I would have thought that looking at the 'red dot' ie the rotor through the timing plate should see the advance working? As it happens if there is no advance, with electronic ignition and magnetic type pickup you end up with a fully retarded ignition which makes the engine extreamly (More rubbish spelling with no spell checker) flat with regard to reving up and running.

More information please.

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by howard_thompson at September 24. 2018

'Out of curiosity I wondered if I could see the red dot through the hole with the engine running using a strobe and it worked. Furthermore, when I revved the engine the dot still stayed centred in the hole indicating that auto-advance is working'

 

'I would have thought that looking at the 'red dot' ie the rotor through the timing plate should see the advance working'

 

Unless it's me who's got the wrong end of the stick (happens often I must admit) it seems that there may be a bit of barking up the wrong tree going on here; with electronic ignition, and unlike the iron-age points/condenser set up, there's no physical movement involved in varying the spark timing so, whereas with the spring-loaded auto advance/retard set up a strobe should show the timing mark moving over variations in the lower end of the rev range, with an electronic set up the timing variation is carried out by electronic jiggery-pokery and, in the case of the Pazon red dot, it remains exactly where you set it when you installed the stuff so your flashing strobe light will merely illuminate it every time, no matter how you rev the engine.

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by patrick_mullen at September 24. 2018

The strobe will only give an accurate timing reading when used on the alternator rotor.

Effectively the red dot is only a convenient reference point for the first basic ignition setting.  If the red dot moves around then you have 'problems' - the rotor after all is meant to be bolted securely to the camshaft

Patrick

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at September 24. 2018

You are probably correct about the red dot. I hope to use the strobe on the alternator side tomorrow so I will let you know how I get one. One good thing is that the engine revs freely so the auto advance seems to be working.

Interestingly, since the ignition module was replaced I  have a very lively blue spark on both plugs so the old unit may well have been faulty.

Dennis

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by dennis_thompson at September 25. 2018

I used the strobe today and found that the timing was out when measured on the alternator (I had marked up the alternator rotor previously with TDC and 32 degrees before TDC against a fixed point). The setting was about 25 degrees before TDC.

I had set the Pazon with the red dot centred as per instructions with the engine set at 32 degrees using a timing disc on the rotor when I installed the electronic ignition.

Pazon state that you may want to check the final setting using a strobe. Since I was as careful as I could be I would say it is essential to check with a strobe.

There was sufficient rotational adjustment in the electronic ignition plate for me to get the correct setting without having to remove and re-position the magnetic pick-up rotor The engine fires up readily now and revs well.

Denis

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by Alan Osborn at September 25. 2018

Previously howard_thompson wrote:

'Out of curiosity I wondered if I could see the red dot through the hole with the engine running using a strobe and it worked. Furthermore, when I revved the engine the dot still stayed centred in the hole indicating that auto-advance is working'

 

'I would have thought that looking at the 'red dot' ie the rotor through the timing plate should see the advance working'

 

Unless it's me who's got the wrong end of the stick (happens often I must admit) it seems that there may be a bit of barking up the wrong tree going on here; with electronic ignition, and unlike the iron-age points/condenser set up, there's no physical movement involved in varying the spark timing so, whereas with the spring-loaded auto advance/retard set up a strobe should show the timing mark moving over variations in the lower end of the rev range, with an electronic set up the timing variation is carried out by electronic jiggery-pokery and, in the case of the Pazon red dot, it remains exactly where you set it when you installed the stuff so your flashing strobe light will merely illuminate it every time, no matter how you rev the engine.

Information above is not quite right. Observing the RED DOT through the PU hole should see it move with the advance but at half the crankshaft degrees. The advance is not carried out by 'jiggery-pokery', but by the small pulse generated by the flying magnets past the two little coils being bigger when it goes quicker (ie reved up) so it gets to a predetermined trigger point sooner ie the spark is advanced.

Re: Pazon 6v for Jubilee

Posted by howard_thompson at September 26. 2018

'The advance is .... carried out... by the small pulse generated by the flying magnets past the two little coils being bigger when it goes quicker'

 

Like I said, electronic jiggery-pokery. Wink

 

However, thanks to your rather more erudite explanation, my poor befuddled brain has now grasped the concept of half-'movement' of the red dot, though of course it doesn't actually move in relation to its position on the camshaft, it's just that the strobe light comes on at a slightly different time in relation to the circular motion of the dot and its the strobe effect that seems to make it move. Ah! the dawning of realisation! Thank you.

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