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ES2 rear brake drum studs

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ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by george_phillips at June 07. 2018

Hi all - on retightening the three wheel sleeve nuts (they're always coming loose!) I found one of them stiff on the stud but the stud looses in the drum. End result was a complete removal of chain, torque arm, brake lever etc to remove the wheel and hub complete.

Inspection showed that the three studs don't look like the ones in the parts book (Plate S item 23) part no. A2/472, which appear to have a bolt head. Mine are countersunk into the holes in the drum and appear to be centre punched into place. The offending one is loose hence my being unable to undo the sleeve nut as the whole unit spins.

So (finally) the questions;

Are mine "normal"/correct?

Do I simply loctite them into place or replace them with the bolt head type?

The Norton is 1955.

Thanks for any help - 'cos I want to be riding it not fettling!

Cheers

George

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by george_phillips at June 07. 2018

Looking on the NOC shop site I see that the drum (E2/463) is fitted with the same sort of studs as I have. They seem to be just punched into place. But I still would like to know how to make them tight once they become loose?

George

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by philip_hannam at June 07. 2018

Mechanical solutions could include pinning alongside the stud shoulder. Dunstall did something similar to stop the outer race of main bearings in crankcases from rotating. Possibly 3 pins at roughly equidistant spacing would be better then a single pin.

Plan B would be brazing the stud in place. Plan C which is what I have successfully done before,  would be to use disimilar welding rods to arc weld the stud to the cast steel drum.

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by george_phillips at June 08. 2018

Owing to my limited w/shop plant/skills I resorted to drilling through the inner end of the stud and into the brake drum then screwing in a self tapping screw. I figured if I could hold it enough to tighten the nut then once tight it would be OK. It seems to work. The sleeve nut was then coated with Loctite and done up good and tight. Much easier with the wheel out as a socket spanner can be inserted through the access hole which is blocked by the speed drive in situ. Naturally did the other two whilst I was at it.

We'll see if it works.........

Thanks for your response, Philip.

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by ian_soady at June 08. 2018

The problem with the design is that once the sleeve nuts come slightly loose (which they often do) the alternating forces from the drive / overrun cause a cantilevering force where they're joined to the brake drum. Worse still, especially with the earlier cotton reel type hubs, the conical seats for the sleeve nuts wear meaning you can never get them properly tight without somehow remachining the seats.

WRT the original query I would probably go with mig welding the studs in place. ISTR that the originals I had on my Model 18 many years ago were splined and a drive fit into the drum.

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by philip_ham at June 08. 2018

George,

These studs have threads on both ends, with a central shoulder to register it in place.  The end that screws into the drum has a concave cone which is then splayed (rivetted) to hold it securely in place.

Somewhere in my spares I have some NOS that I discovered at an autojumble.  I'll dig them out and take a photo this weekend.

Phil Ham.

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by george_phillips at June 08. 2018

That's kind of you, Philip. I didn't bother taking the stud out so can't confirm what it's liek where it passes through the drum. What I've done is reversible as it is simply a self tapper though stud and drum. @Ian - yes mine has "cotton reel" hubs and I can well see how wear would take place. Hopefully they're tight enough now that it wont happen again..........!

George

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by philip_ham at June 10. 2018

George,

I've rummaged my spares and eventually found the studs.  I realize that my photo doesn't show the concave cone in the end, but I think you'll understand the principle.  I can always take another photo tomorrow.

I've noticed that an old spare drum has had some work done to try and splay the cone more where it has become loose, then some welding was employed to hold the stud in place.

Phil.

Attachments

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by george_phillips at June 11. 2018

Thanks Phil. Pity they didn't give some means of really tightening the studs.

G

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by philip_ham at June 11. 2018

Previously George Phillips wrote:

Thanks Phil. Pity they didn't give some means of really tightening the studs.

G

George, the cone end needs swaging out with a large hammer / punch so that it effectively rivets the stud in place.  Not particularly technical, but must have been used since Norton introduced this type of sprocket / brake drum, so was a accepted practice at the time.  I don't expect Norton, or any other manufacturer were designing machines to last 60 years or more!

I'm sure they would advocate the use of thread lock these days, as well as the big hammer!

Phil.

Attachments

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by philip_moss at June 12. 2018

George, I have just replaced my studs. I tightened two nuts against each other and screwed the stud into the brake drum as tight as possible. Then I heated the stud on the inside to red with oxy acetylene torch and riveted over with a ballpein hammer they don't come loose after that!

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by george_phillips at June 12. 2018

Thanks Phil. Sounds spot on. I had another look at it today and found the the errant stud has stripped its thread (or the thread is gone in the drum) so I've resorted to the self tapping screw to hold it whilst the sleeve not will hold it once tight. Let's hope it works.

 

George

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by philip_moss at June 13. 2018

George, That wont work! and when the screw falls out it could lock up your back wheel as it will be rattling around inside with the brakes...

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by philip_ham at June 13. 2018

George,

If we can exchange contact details without putting personal details on the forum I'll send you a replacement stud (FOC).

Phil Ham.

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by george_phillips at June 13. 2018

All done, Phil. Hope the email gets to you.

George

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by george_phillips at June 14. 2018

Any luck with my email, Phil? I sent it via the NOC website.

George

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by philip_ham at June 15. 2018

Previously George Phillips wrote:

Any luck with my email, Phil? I sent it via the NOC website.

George

George,

Message received and reply sent.  For some reason the NOC website uses an old email address even though I've updated my profile!

Phil.

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by george_phillips at June 19. 2018

Not wishing to embarrass Phil but I'd like to publicly thank him for sending me a couple of spare studs FOC for the rear wheel. Excellent "Club Spirit". Many thanks Phil.

Just hoping now that a small butane torch will heat up the studs sufficiently for them to be "riveted" with a ballpein hammer - if I can find one!

George

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by david_cooper at June 19. 2018

I doubt if Norton heated the studs.  Had they done so, I'm sure it would have changed their colour.  I have a new drum in the shed, and the backs of the studs are swaged out with no sign of heat.    And who knows how much that might stress relieve and change the shape of the drum?

If the bolts are a high strength grade, they will be heat treated (hardened and tempered), and if you heat them up they'll lose their temper and therefore half their strength.  But I've no idea what they are made of.

 

Attachments

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by george_phillips at June 20. 2018

That's interesting, David. So do I swage them cold? That would take some clout!

George

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by david_cooper at June 20. 2018

I'm sorry I just don't know really.  But modern wheel studs are usually 'grade 8.8' from what I can see on the ever-unreliable web, and that is certainly heat treated.

As you say it would take some clout.  And the other side of the stud would need support, maybe in a hole in a thick walled steel tube bearing on the shoulder of the stud?  Or with a stack of nuts on the stud?  Or a spare sleeve nut?

The handbooks I have don't say anything on the subject.  I suppose the drum itself is 'disposable' in the sense that it carries the sprocket teeth (at the rear anyway).

For what it's worth, I'd try Phillip Moss idea using double nuts but with Loctite and cold swaging.  I cold rivetted a new brake anchor on my front brake plate (which is steel in alloy) and it must be similar size.  If it is mild steel it should be easy to rivet cold, and if it is high tensile heat treated then I don't think it should be cooked.

Re: ES2 rear brake drum studs

Posted by robert_tuck at June 20. 2018

Could these be braised to secure them?, I have a memory of having a loose stud ,but I think the threads were intact .

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