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1924 16H lubrication

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1924 16H lubrication

Posted by andy_buchan at April 09. 2018

Just taken delivery of a 1924 16H with a Best and Lloyd lube oil pump fitted.  Its a total loss system.  It still has the hand pump fitted.  I suspect it is over oiling judging by the blue haze that follows me and the oil weeping out the exh push rod and the back of the barrel / casing and a bit in the cyl head too.  I topped up the oil tank and it used about 25% over 20 miles, which I appreciate is a bit excessive.

My questions are;

  1. Where can I get an ops / maintenance manual for this bike?
  2. What is the correct oil level in the crank case.  Is there a way to measure this or do I have to drain it out to measure it?
  3. How do I top up this crank case level at an oil change?
  4. I still have a bit of adjustment on the Best and Lloyd pump, I can screw it down a bit.  I guess a bit of caution required here.
  5. I could switch the Best and Lloyd off and return to the hand pump use
  6. There is no oil flow indication.

I am bumping about in the dark with this bike at the moment, hopefully I will get a hold of a manual for it but all advice appreciated.

regards Andy

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by Ian MacDougall at April 09. 2018

Hi Andy

NMM/Bruce Main Smith sell copies of the original Norton publications. This one should get you started:

http://www.nationalmotorcyclemuseum.co.uk/product/norton-1924-to-1930-instruction-manual-covers-all-models-and-sidecars-good-manual-syrtis345/

I don't have a flat tank Norton but my 1923 Triumph (hand pump only) should be similar in terms of operation. I suggest you start by draining the crankcase, then use the hand pump to inject fresh oil, 2 or 3 strokes should be enough. At any given moment there is probably no more than an eggcup's worth of oil in the crankcase, just enough for the flywheels to dip in and provide splash lubrication to where it's needed. Once running 1 stroke of the handpump every 15 minutes seems about right for the Triumph, although some people suggest a half stroke more frequently. The aim is to compensate for the normal losses and maintain that eggcup quantity (more or less) at all times. Your Best & Lloyd pump is trying to do that for you.

As you are finding out over-oiling is more likely than under. From what you have said it sounds like the Best & Lloyd is delivering slightly more than needed.

It can be a challenge riding one of these things, plenty to keep you busy. And then there are the brakes! You will enjoy it.

Good luck, Ian McD

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by ian_soady at April 09. 2018

It would be worth considering becoming a "friend" of the NMM - you get a free BMS photocopy every year but you also get the chance to ride bikes of all vintages in their "ride a bike" days - open only to friends. I did this last year and it was superb - where else would I get the chance to get aboard a Brough Superior, Vincent twin, single speed belt-driver and Norton F1 all in one morning!

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by andy_buchan at April 09. 2018

Previously Ian MacDougall wrote:

Hi Andy

NMM/Bruce Main Smith sell copies of the original Norton publications. This one should get you started:

http://www.nationalmotorcyclemuseum.co.uk/product/norton-1924-to-1930-instruction-manual-covers-all-models-and-sidecars-good-manual-syrtis345/

I don't have a flat tank Norton but my 1923 Triumph (hand pump only) should be similar in terms of operation. I suggest you start by draining the crankcase, then use the hand pump to inject fresh oil, 2 or 3 strokes should be enough. At any given moment there is probably no more than an eggcup's worth of oil in the crankcase, just enough for the flywheels to dip in and provide splash lubrication to where it's needed. Once running 1 stroke of the handpump every 15 minutes seems about right for the Triumph, although some people suggest a half stroke more frequently. The aim is to compensate for the normal losses and maintain that eggcup quantity (more or less) at all times. Your Best & Lloyd pump is trying to do that for you.

As you are finding out over-oiling is more likely than under. From what you have said it sounds like the Best & Lloyd is delivering slightly more than needed.

It can be a challenge riding one of these things, plenty to keep you busy. And then there are the brakes! You will enjoy it.

Good luck, Ian McD

 

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by andy_buchan at April 09. 2018

Thanks Ian,

Wow, that's not much oil in the crankcase.  I've ordered up the manual thanks.  I will give the crankcases an empty and see what I've got.  Yes there is a lot to be getting on with out on the road but once I had worked out that first and second gear are only needed for slowing down life was easier.  It has 1927 wheels and brakes fitted so I expect they are marginally better than standard.   It really is a blast, very different pace of life to anything else I have but love it.

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by Ian MacDougall at April 09. 2018

No, not much. Like later Nortons they are dry sump. The difference is that later engines have pumps that deliver oil to where it's needed and scavenge (at a higher capacity) back to tank. End result is very little oil sloshing around in the crankcase. With the earlier engines it is up to the operator to regulate the quantity, either by manually pumping when required or regulating the output from the mechanical pump. If you do have more oil than that the excess will find a way out, either by leaking or burning. Check the Norton manual for the quantity of oil to be injected into empty crankcases, it might be different to Triumph advice. Some riders add some 2 stroke oil to the fuel to help with upper cylinder/valve guide lubrication and to avoid a disaster if you forget to pump oil when required.

I think I saw your bike advertised and was tempted. The later Norton drum brakes should be a significant improvement. My Triumph came with a stirrup front brake (totally useless) and a dummy belt rim rear brake (OK-ish in the dry). Now has a Tiger Cub front wheel so slightly less scary in traffic.

Ian McD

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by Ian MacDougall at April 09. 2018

Another thought about lubrication: what grade of oil are you using? If the grade is too light you may not be able to regulate the flow through the pump effectively. Check what the Norton manual recommends, but I would suggest SAE30 as a minimum. I run the Triumph on 20W50 (the cheaper the better, as it will only go through once).

Ian McD

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by alan_elstob at April 09. 2018

A lot of people use SAE50

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by andy_buchan at April 10. 2018

Thanks.  It has SAE 40 at the moment, I might try the SAE50 and turn down the pump to try and slow things down a bit.

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by stephen_crowder at April 10. 2018

Previously andy_buchan wrote:

Thanks.  It has SAE 40 at the moment, I might try the SAE50 and turn down the pump to try and slow things down a bit.

 

I use Castrol r40 but you can not mix with mineral oils. ( Engine strip required)

I would not class a flat tank norton as “dry sump” the oil in the cases needs to be just enough to get thrashed around to lubricate everything.

Dry sump did not come in till later when scavenge pumps were fitted to return to tank.

Even the early model 25 and cs1 regulates oil level in the sump.

The oilpump should feed oil to the T junction and onto the cams and followers which in turn ends up in the crankcases.

George Cohen used to suggest there be around 200mm of oil in the crankcases at any one time.

Check how much oil sits in the cases after a run and adjust oiling to suit. The Best and Lloyd pumps are easy to adjust, slacken the two top screws and turn the regulator to increase or decrease the plunger throw then tighten screws again.

 

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by norman_lorton at April 10. 2018

Hi Andy

It is important to realise that these are not dry sump engines. There MUST be sufficient oil in the crank case to be picked up by the flywheels and flung about. If there is not then the piston will nip up, and quickly seize if you don't then stop.

Drain off the oil and measure how much there is. I think you are going to find about 300ml. Any more than this and it starts to leak out and get pushed up the bore. Anything less than 200ml and you risk a seize. A cupful is insufficient so I would not dare run it on an eggcup full.

The hand pump is not lubricating anything - it is just topping up the crankcase by feeding it onto the flywheel. About 1 pump every 5 to 10 miles might be enough.

I think the the early automatic pumps are doing exactly the same job. I don't know in what year the 16H engine was redesigned to have a pumped feed to the crankshaft, it would be when there was a scavenge back to the oil tank. Perhaps someone can comment.

It would be best to use a thick oil like a 50W.

Norm.

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by andy_buchan at April 11. 2018

Thanks for all the comments.  Yes I get the splash lube principle and appreciate the fine balance between too much and too little.  The hand lube pump and Best and Lloyd both run in to a T on the crank case in front of the barrel.  I guess I have a bit of adjusting, a bit of running and a bit of measuring to do.  I guess the setting is slightly too much oil so you can burn off a small excess without it over filling and leaking everywhere.  

Looking forward to some trials

A

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by ian_richtsteig at April 11. 2018

Previously andy_buchan wrote:

Thanks for all the comments.  Yes I get the splash lube principle and appreciate the fine balance between too much and too little.  The hand lube pump and Best and Lloyd both run in to a T on the crank case in front of the barrel.  I guess I have a bit of adjusting, a bit of running and a bit of measuring to do.  I guess the setting is slightly too much oil so you can burn off a small excess without it over filling and leaking everywhere.

Looking forward to some trials

A

 

Hi Andy,

I am assembling a 1926 Big 4 and have just checked the oil requirements for my 1929 ES2 with respect to the volume in the crankcases.

The simple answer is as Norman has stated.  About 200ml needs to be added to the empty sump to ensure there is sufficient splash lubrication of the bearings.   The oil pump should be set to add about 30 drops per minute at speeds above idle.

You are lucky to have a mechanical B & L pump fitted as well as the hand pump on your 1924 16H.     You should check the factory records for your engine and frame numbers and see if it was optioned for by the first buyer of the machine.

B & L pumps were first fitted to the Model 18 in 1925 and then to the Model 18 and Model 19 in 1926.   Side valve models didn't get mechanical pumps until the 1927 year.   Also in 1927 the Models 21 & 25 were the first fitted with recirculating pumps rather than the total loss systems previously fitted and the CS-1 received a recirculating system when first introduced in 1928.

Check the sales catalogues on vintagenorton.com for the illustrations.   Models without oil pumps don't have a separate oil tank, just the combined petrol and oil tank.

regards, Ian

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by Ian MacDougall at April 12. 2018

My apologies for using the term dry sump. This was incorrect, and could have been misleading.

To check if you have your lubrication regime about right you could add the appropriate quantity of oil to an empty crankcase then go for a good run. Far enough so that several strokes of a manual pump have been delivered. On return drain the crankcase and measure the quantity. Ideally it should be about the same as put in at the start, which shows that you are compensating for the natural losses from the engine.

Ian McD

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by stephen_crowder at April 16. 2018

Previously Ian MacDougall wrote:

My apologies for using the term dry sump. This was incorrect, and could have been misleading.

To check if you have your lubrication regime about right you could add the appropriate quantity of oil to an empty crankcase then go for a good run. Far enough so that several strokes of a manual pump have been delivered. On return drain the crankcase and measure the quantity. Ideally it should be about the same as put in at the start, which shows that you are compensating for the natural losses from the engine.

Ian McD

Re: 1924 16H lubrication

Posted by stephen_crowder at April 16. 2018

Previously andy_buchan wrote:

Thanks for all the comments.  Yes I get the splash lube principle and appreciate the fine balance between too much and too little.  The hand lube pump and Best and Lloyd both run in to a T on the crank case in front of the barrel.  I guess I have a bit of adjusting, a bit of running and a bit of measuring to do.  I guess the setting is slightly too much oil so you can burn off a small excess without it over filling and leaking everywhere.

Looking forward to some trials

A

There is reasonable evidence that Best and Lloyd pumps were actually used in the 1923 TT  before Moore joined Norton and not as most publications suggest the 1924 TT.

certainly by 1924 they were being widely used.

hope you enjoy the bike should it ever stop raining!

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