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fuel

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fuel

Posted by neil_waterton at September 11. 2017

Hi, although I am getting on a bit (retired from full time last October) I have quite recently joined the classic bike owning populace. Having been a biking sprog in the mid 60's and a leather clad 'yobbo in the late 60's and early 70's, I then found cars,booze,fags and birds much more interesting. (Brighton 68-70 was fun and hell at the same time)... Now I am having to re-learn some 'biking things I have either forgotten or never knew in the first place. Basic question about my 1968 Atlas: Is it ok to run on the modern fuels of today, with no mods required to valve seats, published carb settings or additives in the tank? All this debate about ethanol and unleaded not being good for the older stuff is a bit confusing and would like some guidance. First of many pretty dull and uninspiring questions I'm afraid, but have to start somewhere. Thanks in advance.

Neil

Re: fuel

Posted by Gordon Johnston at September 12. 2017

The valve seats are hardened so don't need attention. Stick to the premium petrol and you'll be fine. Just get out and ride!

Re: fuel

Posted by stuart_munroe at September 12. 2017

Ditto the above!!!

Re: fuel

Posted by robert_tuck at September 12. 2017

Ditto the above as long as the tank has not been lined with resin. If the parking it not in a really dry area I would also stick a bit of tape over the tank breather hole to restrict breathing and water vapour absorption and run the last half mile with the tap off to reduce loss of volatile elements when parked. Failing that ride it a lot!.

Re: fuel

Posted by david_evans at September 12. 2017

If you have not ridden for a long time you might consider doing a riding course. People never understood the finer points of counter steering and many born again bikers (and new ones) will run wide on corners. Counter steering will keep them out of the oncoming traffic and is quicker than waiting for the bike to respond to your lean in. Needs practice and also needs to become second nature.

Re: fuel

Posted by neil_waterton at September 12. 2017

Previously david_evans wrote:

If you have not ridden for a long time you might consider doing a riding course. People never understood the finer points of counter steering and many born again bikers (and new ones) will run wide on corners. Counter steering will keep them out of the oncoming traffic and is quicker than waiting for the bike to respond to your lean in. Needs practice and also needs to become second nature.

hi David

Thanks for the worthy points you mention. However, my original post says I have just joined the classic biking fraternity. Having last year sold my 1st generation unrestricted Suzuki Hayabusa for a more conventional sitting and riding position, now riding a GSX1400 retro, I think I will leave the course for now. Classic bike ownership is,for me, a memory lane trip much as enjoying motorcycling generally. Regards, Neil

Re: fuel

Posted by ian_goodhall at September 12. 2017

If there is an Esso petrol station near you, fill up there with their super unleaded. It's supposed to be ethanol free.

Ian

Re: fuel

Posted by Neil Wyatt at September 12. 2017

Quite correct Ian, as long as it is not in Scotland, Teesside or the SW of England.

Re: fuel

Posted by andy_chetwood at September 12. 2017

I don't particularly like ethanol in fuel BUT it could be construed that fossil fuel won't last forever and by adding something else may keep it around longer.

Were some of the first I/C engines running on non-fossil fuel? Did Mr Diesel design his engine to run on bio-fuel?.

it could be argued that because fossil fuel was cheaper and therefore more desirable that automotive engineers glossed over designing stuff that would work with both.

Have Consumers sealed their own death warrant?

Re: fuel

Posted by Neil Wyatt at September 12. 2017

Previously andy_chetwood wrote:

I don't particularly like ethanol in fuel BUT it could be construed that fossil fuel won't last forever and by adding something else may keep it around longer.

Were some of the first I/C engines running on non-fossil fuel? Did Mr Diesel design his engine to run on bio-fuel?.

it could be argued that because fossil fuel was cheaper and therefore more desirable that automotive engineers glossed over designing stuff that would work with both.

Have Consumers sealed their own death warrant?

 

Andy, the First Ford Model T cars in the US of A were targeted at the Mid West farmers who made their own corn based ethanol to run the car. Of course, even back then the car was made ethanol compliant.

Before the needle gets stuck again I'll change fuel:

I don't think anyone has yet commented on a Norton running on LPG, since this fuel was not specifically mentioned in a politically targeted future ban.

Re: fuel

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at September 12. 2017
Previously andy_chetwood wrote:

I don't particularly like ethanol in fuel BUT it could be construed that fossil fuel won't last forever and by adding something else may keep it around longer.

Were some of the first I/C engines running on non-fossil fuel? Did Mr Diesel design his engine to run on bio-fuel?.

it could be argued that because fossil fuel was cheaper and therefore more desirable that automotive engineers glossed over designing stuff that would work with both.

Have Consumers sealed their own death warrant?

 

hello  NO  Mr DIESEL made a engine to run on wast  from making petrol  witch was then called durve   I have worked on some of the biggest engines in the world  over 100 foot high  and 200 foot long  and 30 foot wide at base  and walked inside these engines  some have nuts and bolts 2foot 6inch across now you need a very big windy hammer drill from them and four chain blocks and ten men to undo one of them,   well i been there and have the Tshirt      yours  anna j  ,  

Re: fuel

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at September 12. 2017
Previously Neil Wyatt wrote:

Previously andy_chetwood wrote:

I don't particularly like ethanol in fuel BUT it could be construed that fossil fuel won't last forever and by adding something else may keep it around longer.

Were some of the first I/C engines running on non-fossil fuel? Did Mr Diesel design his engine to run on bio-fuel?.

it could be argued that because fossil fuel was cheaper and therefore more desirable that automotive engineers glossed over designing stuff that would work with both.

Have Consumers sealed their own death warrant?

 

Andy, the First Ford Model T cars in the US of A were targeted at the Mid West farmers who made their own corn based ethanol to run the car. Of course, even back then the car was made ethanol compliant.

Before the needle gets stuck again I'll change fuel:

I don't think anyone has yet commented on a Norton running on LPG, since this fuel was not specifically mentioned in a politically targeted future ban.

      Hello all no your much better running your Norton on HHO  it's much cleaner, 
  

Re: fuel

Posted by Charles Bovington at September 13. 2017

Previously Neil Wyatt wrote:

Previously andy_chetwood wrote:

I don't particularly like ethanol in fuel BUT it could be construed that fossil fuel won't last forever and by adding something else may keep it around longer.

Were some of the first I/C engines running on non-fossil fuel? Did Mr Diesel design his engine to run on bio-fuel?.

it could be argued that because fossil fuel was cheaper and therefore more desirable that automotive engineers glossed over designing stuff that would work with both.

Have Consumers sealed their own death warrant?

 

Andy, the First Ford Model T cars in the US of A were targeted at the Mid West farmers who made their own corn based ethanol to run the car. Of course, even back then the car was made ethanol compliant.

Before the needle gets stuck again I'll change fuel:

I don't think anyone has yet commented on a Norton running on LPG, since this fuel was not specifically mentioned in a politically targeted future ban.


Rudolf Diesel actually tried powdered coal, Ammonia,and  Peanut Oil before turning to a heavyish fraction distilled from crude oil. With regard to LPG, I am not sure that I like the idea of riding around with a quantity of explosive gas between my knees.

Incidentally, I note that Anna needed 10 men to undo one nut. Not very feminist of her! I have fond memories of a project carried out with Sulzer which required one of my colleges to climb into a ships engine, stand on the piston and be lowered the chief engineer hand by cranking the engine so that he could measure the diameter of a series of dimples which Sulzer had machined into the liners. not a job for the claustrophobic. He always took a couple of bottles of single malt to give to the engineer to ensure his safe exit from the engines.

Re: fuel

Posted by ian_cordes at September 13. 2017

Going back to your original question about fuel, there is some good information in another thread running at the moment, entitled 'The 'Real' Spirit of Motorcycling, Maybe?'. Ignore the crackpot stuff, but good information regarding ethanol, in particular.

I do agree with a couple of early replies to your question, i.e. use premium fuel and ride it. However, unless you live in the SW, Teeside or Scotland, you would do well to find the nearest Esso station which dispenses super unleaded marked with the red label. That should ensure it is ethanol-free.

Cautionary tale:- I very recently bought a 1994 Moto Guzzi 1100, and rode it from Cornwall to The Isle of Man for the Classic TT. Whilst there, as I rode into Murray's Motorcycle Museum; well worth a visit btw; I smelt petrol. Looking down I saw fuel spraying out horizontally from the area of the right-hand fuel injector. I stopped and saw fuel flooding down the crankcases from a leaking pipe; game over. With no facility to buy new fuel pipe and insufficient tools to effect a repair; the fuel pipes are not easily accessible; I was recovered to a nearby motorcycle dealer, who changed the pipe, enabling me to continue my holiday. The bill for recovery and repair was £160, for a £3 pipe. The leaking pipe had turned to chewing gum, almost certainly the effect of ethanol in modern petrol, which the 23 year old bike was not designed to use. There are 9 petrol pipes on the bike, which is now at home, and stripped, ready to replace them all.

There are may stories of vintage and classic bikes catching fire because of this issue. Unless you know that the fuel pipes on your bike are ethanol-proof, change 'em!

Re: fuel

Posted by Barry Carson at September 13. 2017

i fitted some braided fuel pipe they said was everything proof to my bike with the intension of starting it the next day after a top end rebuild. anyway some petrol had made its way into the pipe and over night the pipe had gone from normal to a jelly like substance and expanded drooping down. so i can only assume that it was the fuel that transformed it into that state. as i still have some pipe left and thats ok.

Re: fuel

Posted by David Cooper at September 13. 2017

The flexible fuel hoses on the high pressure fuel injection system of my late 1980's Vauxhall Carlton sprang leaks everywhere and all had to be replaced when less than 10 years old.

Poor quality hoses and nothing to do with ethanol when that happened.

Incidentally: there is no shortage of fossil fuel.  As soon as it becomes slightly harder to obtain, the price goes up and the quantity of economically obtainable resources goes up even faster.  It's been happening for decades with almost all the other minerals we use - although the 'Club of Rome' report in 1972 famously (and wrongly) told us we would run out of oil by 2002.

Meanwhile I wonder when I start planning an electric 16H?

Re: fuel

Posted by ian_cordes at September 13. 2017

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

i fitted some braided fuel pipe they said was everything proof to my bike with the intension of starting it the next day after a top end rebuild. anyway some petrol had made its way into the pipe and over night the pipe had gone from normal to a jelly like substance and expanded drooping down. so i can only assume that it was the fuel that transformed it into that state. as i still have some pipe left and thats ok.

Barry. Overnight? Mine did well to last 23 years then! Was this the braided stainless type as sold at bike shows and jumbles? Was it sold as fuel pipe? Various pipes for various applications; i.e. petrol, air, oil, hydraulics etc can look similar, but be totally unsuited to applications for which they were not designed. I have used such pipe in my 650SS, but always use ethanol-free fuel. Actually, apart from once, when I put 1/2 gallon of Tesco super-unleaded in the tank, as it was virtually out of petrol. The following morning I found that the fumes alone had stripped the paint around the inside of the filler, and it peeled off in one single strip. The pipe remains ok, and that was a few years ago.

The pipe which I have bought for the Guzzi is from Draganfly, and they assure me it is ethanol-proof. It is stamped 'CODAN FULE HOSE BSAU 108/2 L4/C4R & SAE J30 R6 WP 12 BAR'. This translates as being resistant to petroleum products with 50% aromatic content and 5% MTBE, the octane-boosting additive. Slightly concerning is the date stamp, 03/08/13. Should be ok if stored correctlyUndecided Similar pipe is available in local motor factors.

Time will tell.....

Re: fuel

Posted by Neil Wyatt at September 13. 2017

Previously Charles Bovington wrote:

Previously Neil Wyatt wrote:

Previously andy_chetwood wrote:

I don't particularly like ethanol in fuel BUT it could be construed that fossil fuel won't last forever and by adding something else may keep it around longer.

Were some of the first I/C engines running on non-fossil fuel? Did Mr Diesel design his engine to run on bio-fuel?.

it could be argued that because fossil fuel was cheaper and therefore more desirable that automotive engineers glossed over designing stuff that would work with both.

Have Consumers sealed their own death warrant?

 

Andy, the First Ford Model T cars in the US of A were targeted at the Mid West farmers who made their own corn based ethanol to run the car. Of course, even back then the car was made ethanol compliant.

Before the needle gets stuck again I'll change fuel:

I don't think anyone has yet commented on a Norton running on LPG, since this fuel was not specifically mentioned in a politically targeted future ban.


Rudolf Diesel actually tried powdered coal, Ammonia,and  Peanut Oil before turning to a heavyish fraction distilled from crude oil. With regard to LPG, I am not sure that I like the idea of riding around with a quantity of explosive gas between my knees.

Incidentally, I note that Anna needed 10 men to undo one nut. Not very feminist of her! I have fond memories of a project carried out with Sulzer which required one of my colleges to climb into a ships engine, stand on the piston and be lowered the chief engineer hand by cranking the engine so that he could measure the diameter of a series of dimples which Sulzer had machined into the liners. not a job for the claustrophobic. He always took a couple of bottles of single malt to give to the engineer to ensure his safe exit from the engines.

 

Charles, thanks for your view on LPG but isn't ethanol more volatile than petrol without this substance? And some ride with that between their knees. What about the clear flame it burns, you wouldn't even see it. (But feel it) It requires a special foam to put out an ethanol fire, I understand. Most fire services don't have it.

Before the needle gets stuck again, you are quite right to remind members of your grief with ethanol, Ian. My Commando nearly went up when one of the braded hoses started spraying fuel in all directions, some of it onto the hot engine. Government put out a disclaimer when they introduced this stuff by stealth and all the FBHVC did was to endorse a few additives to slow down the evil effects of this solvent.

I found EVF (Formerly Total) Super Unleaded BS7800 to be E0, at least in Ramsey.IOM.

Re: fuel

Posted by ian_cordes at September 13. 2017

Neil. Yes, I used EVF when on the IoM, usually filling up at Corkills in Onchan, as we were staying in very agreeable self-catering bungalows at nearby Groudle Glen.

My understanding; correct me if I am wrong; is that all fuel on the IoM is ethanol-free? Anyway, it was too late for me, although I did get going, albeit at great expense! grrr.....

BTW, you would need a gert big high pressure gas tank securely strapped to your rear carrier if you went the lpg route, as I cannot imagine where else you would site it. This in turn is likely to be too heavy for any carrier I know of.

Re: fuel

Posted by michael_sullivan at September 13. 2017

Re: note from Charles Bovington about the Sulzer nuts

I hope that you gave the bottles of single malt to the engineer only after you were safely extracted and not before!

Mike

Re: fuel

Posted by robert_tuck at September 13. 2017

A few weeks before we went to the IOM  the Atlas got a dose of fuel with eth,  the tank lining completely disintigrated causing all manner of problems,one problem that we only found on arrival at the IOM was the corks on the tap disintigrated and i had to make new ones on the campsite with stanley knife and sandpaper ,they worked fine and are still in servive. Local eth free fuel cleaned up the plugs.

Re: fuel

Posted by Barry Carson at September 13. 2017

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

i fitted some braided fuel pipe they said was everything proof to my bike with the intension of starting it the next day after a top end rebuild. anyway some petrol had made its way into the pipe and over night the pipe had gone from normal to a jelly like substance and expanded drooping down. so i can only assume that it was the fuel that transformed it into that state. as i still have some pipe left and thats ok.

Barry. Overnight? Mine did well to last 23 years then! Was this the braided stainless type as sold at bike shows and jumbles? Was it sold as fuel pipe? Various pipes for various applications; i.e. petrol, air, oil, hydraulics etc can look similar, but be totally unsuited to applications for which they were not designed. I have used such pipe in my 650SS, but always use ethanol-free fuel. Actually, apart from once, when I put 1/2 gallon of Tesco super-unleaded in the tank, as it was virtually out of petrol. The following morning I found that the fumes alone had stripped the paint around the inside of the filler, and it peeled off in one single strip. The pipe remains ok, and that was a few years ago.

The pipe which I have bought for the Guzzi is from Draganfly, and they assure me it is ethanol-proof. It is stamped 'CODAN FULE HOSE BSAU 108/2 L4/C4R & SAE J30 R6 WP 12 BAR'. This translates as being resistant to petroleum products with 50% aromatic content and 5% MTBE, the octane-boosting additive. Slightly concerning is the date stamp, 03/08/13. Should be ok if stored correctlyUndecided Similar pipe is available in local motor factors.

Time will tell.....

...................................................................................

Hi Ian .

it was the stainless braided type. cant remember where i had it from more than likely off e-bay. but what i did notice was it had a very thin wall to the pipe. i pushed the pipe on with no clips just overnight. found it the next day as i described. i fitted some of the halfords pipe and thats been ok.  

Barry

 


Re: fuel

Posted by ian_cordes at September 13. 2017

Barry. I reckon you were sold pipe which was for another purpose, not fuel. Even ethanol normally takes a bit longer than that to destroy pipes!

Robert. Well done for resolving what could have been an ethanol-induced nightmare for you! It brings to mind the fact that no petrol tank should be lined unless it is a matter of last resort. If the steel tank is sound, de-rust it with phosphoric acid and leave it be. Lining is just another thing to go wrong. I am waiting for the posts from those for whom lining has been successful; meanwhile there are at least as many who have had them fail. If normal precautions are taken, and the tank is basically sound, it should not need lining.

Re: fuel

Posted by Neil Wyatt at September 13. 2017

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Neil. Yes, I used EVF when on the IoM, usually filling up at Corkills in Onchan, as we were staying in very agreeable self-catering bungalows at nearby Groudle Glen.

My understanding; correct me if I am wrong; is that all fuel on the IoM is ethanol-free? Anyway, it was too late for me, although I did get going, albeit at great expense! grrr.....

BTW, you would need a gert big high pressure gas tank securely strapped to your rear carrier if you went the lpg route, as I cannot imagine where else you would site it. This in turn is likely to be too heavy for any carrier I know of.

Hi Ian, I know Corkills, used it many times as a Total station but not this time. In Ramsey EVF the 95 RON was clearly marked up as EN228 and that means 5% ethanol. (Incidentally, EN228 the EU has decided will be the same standard for E10, they don't care so how is one to know?) I accidentally spilt a small amount of Super BS7800 on my tank and my white tissue did not pick up any paint as it did in 2006 when I didn't know about this stuff.  I just thought the tank wasn't petrol proofed, it was, just not ethanol proof! All for now, the groove is getting stuck and the needle wearing down! PS: Thanks for the LPG comment, looks like a no go.

Re: fuel

Posted by Neil Wyatt at September 13. 2017

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Barry. I reckon you were sold pipe which was for another purpose, not fuel. Even ethanol normally takes a bit longer than that to destroy pipes!

Robert. Well done for resolving what could have been an ethanol-induced nightmare for you! It brings to mind the fact that no petrol tank should be lined unless it is a matter of last resort. If the steel tank is sound, de-rust it with phosphoric acid and leave it be. Lining is just another thing to go wrong. I am waiting for the posts from those for whom lining has been successful; meanwhile there are at least as many who have had them fail. If normal precautions are taken, and the tank is basically sound, it should not need lining.

Ian, I pet sealed three tanks, two slimline and my 16H. As I used the slimline singles, they were both victims of ethanol attack by stealth 2006 / 2007. Hell of a job, but I got most of the jelly like pet seal out and both tanks now have no sealant. My 16H still has the pet seal I lined the tank with in 1997. It has never seen ethanol to this day and is perfect inside. Since then I have sealed my 650 with slosh and my 99 & 57 Model 50 tanks with Wyldes Flow Liner (Both ethanol resistant) Not used the 57 tank yet but the 650 and 99 tanks are fine, but then again I go out of my way not to use ethanol. Needle stuck in the groove again...

Re: fuel

Posted by ian_cordes at September 13. 2017

Neil. Why did you line the tanks in the first instance? Were they perforated?

Re: fuel

Posted by Barry Carson at September 13. 2017

Ian, it was sold as such. suitable for modern fuel/oil/ ect. as you say it was probably intended for another purpose .

 Barry

Re: fuel

Posted by Neil Wyatt at September 13. 2017

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Neil. Why did you line the tanks in the first instance? Were they perforated?

 

Ian, I was advised to. Not a bad idea at the time as the Pet Seal was marketed to preserve the tank with its inhibitors etc as well as fill any holes I didn't have. I wouldn't have bothered if I had known what politicians were scheming to hit us with. Long Live E0...And my 16H tank.

Needle sticking again!

Re: fuel

Posted by david_evans at September 14. 2017

Hi Neil Waterton, apologies for the riding course advice. Understanding your riding background now I'm sure you don't need much advice on getting round a corner safely. One of our branch members is a retired police motorcyclist and tells of many attendances at RTAs where the rider has run out of talent/road/etc when the road conditions don't warrant it. Do plan ahead with your Atlas brakes after getting off your GSXSmile

Re: fuel

Posted by robert_tuck at September 14. 2017

Hi Ian,  Ethanol was only one of my problems in the IOM, on the first day before our ride out I had the tap,then the 99 gearbox appart to try and find why the kickstart would not engage (pawl in upside down!) Then the 250 Ducati gearchange needed re-shimming and carb jet cleaning ignition timing ,still got out in the morning on the 3 old bikes and luckily only the Ducati continued to act up through the 10 days riding,I appologise now to all those riders on big bikes that I streaked past at inapropriate moments ,the dammed thing would not run slowly at all. Thats my excuse anyway.

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