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Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

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Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by john_hall1 at November 28. 2017

We recently received this mail:

"I bought a full gasket set for an 850 Commando part no 06-5030 through the Norton Owners Club.
The cylinder base gasket has failed at the driveside rear after a very low mileage(less than 2000 miles).
Also, when I removed the head, the rear part of the composite gasket has moved, I noticed this at first because the oil drain hole was partially covered by the gasket. The head had been correctly torqued down after the recommended mileages & was not loose when removing the bolts."


Whilst the card (see picture) that came with the gasket set slyly apes Andover Norton's packing neither the label, nor the product, is anything to do with Andover Norton.

Only when you see the Andover Norton logo and address on the card you can be sure the part is approved and tested by us, the people who ride Nortons in everyday life and own the factory drawings and tooling to produce proper Norton parts.


If you see the label on the right the part has never been near Andover and is not a Genuine Norton Factory Spare Part, whatever the fancy label says.

 

???????????

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by ian_soady at November 28. 2017

Just had a look at their site and can't see this - where is it?

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Colin Peterson at November 28. 2017

Got the URL for that ...?

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by john_hall1 at November 28. 2017

Right at the Bottom of the page!

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/news/p/2

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Colin Peterson at November 28. 2017

Thanks, got it – second-to-last story on the page. From what I've seen since April this year, AN no longer uses packing like that for items ordered directly from them. But maybe they still supply stock with a card like that to retailers? Anyway I bet there's still stuff like this out there.

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by john_hall1 at November 28. 2017

AN are saying it is Fake stuff, and they guy is claiming he got it from the NOC!

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Julian Wells at November 28. 2017

I have a lot of respect for AN, but it's a bit naughty of them if they repeated their correspondent's claim without checking with the Club (and dangerous for AN, since arguably there is a defamatory implication here).

In their place I would have tried a quiet word with the spares scheme before going public.

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by David Cooper at November 28. 2017

A little bit odd that the base gasket failed so soon.  They aren't much more than a piece of paper, so a counterfeiter would have to try very hard to make it 'fail'.  Makes me wonder what else was wrong with the motor or the way it was put together.  We also all know that the issue of who is making 'real' parts and who is claimed by the others of producing counterfeit parts is a matter of some contention!

And what does "the head was not loose when removing the bolts" really mean? 

 

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Julian Wells at November 28. 2017

I assume that it's a clumsy way of saying that the fasteners were still at something like their correct torque.

Previously David Cooper wrote:

And what does "the head was not loose when removing the bolts" really mean?

 

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by mick_green at November 28. 2017

I can see Andover Norton's point the parts being complained about are not from them but are from Norvil with their very similar copy of Andover Norton's parts card hence why Andover Norton have changed theirs.

 

 

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Peter White at November 29. 2017

This defamatory statement was brought to the attention of the NOC Exec some months ago and it’s very disappointing that Andover Norton have not yet seen fit to remove it. Our understanding is that the gaskets in question were indeed purchased by the club from that well known supplier based in Staffordshire. On enquiry they advised - and are prepared to swear an affidavit to the fact - that it was part of a consignment originating from - you guessed it.. Andover Norton...

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Colin Peterson at November 29. 2017

My guess would be that the well-known supplier based in Staffordshire swears a lot ... What the paper trail might reveal would be more persuasive.

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Neil Wyatt at November 29. 2017

OK, so you can even buy fake Commando parts while so many urgently needed parts for 50's singles are not available in genuine or even fake!

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Skip Brolund at November 29. 2017

To be fair, Neil,its not the clubs responsibility to make parts that you need for your bike. You however, could take the time to acquire said parts, find a shop that is willing to make it, forge it, cast it, etc. I offer those items for sale to the club, or to owners directly.

I have.

Its easier to complaint, than to take action. Show us what you can do !!!

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by john_holmes at November 29. 2017

I offered to get quotes from a very good supplier I use, the offer was on this forum, all I need is for someone to give me a drawing or dimensioned sketch of a part.

 

Still waiting !!!!

 

What is the spares scheme for, because I thought it was to cater for the more obscure parts to keep bikes on the road.

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by joe_seifert at November 29. 2017

Previously Peter White wrote:

This defamatory statement was brought to the attention of the NOC Exec some months ago and it’s very disappointing that Andover Norton have not yet seen fit to remove it. Our understanding is that the gaskets in question were indeed purchased by the club from that well known supplier based in Staffordshire. On enquiry they advised - and are prepared to swear an affidavit to the fact - that it was part of a consignment originating from - you guessed it.. Andover Norton...

Given that I cancelled the account of "Norvil Motorcycles" with Andover Norton half a decade ago- in fact on 1st October, 2012- I, too, would like to see the paper trail for what is clearly not sourced from us. In fact I declined to sell anything to that enterprise since that date.
As a common gasket does not normally have a shelf live of over 5 years you may ask yourself how believeable the claim from Mr.Emery is this was a gasket sourced from us.

And talking of sourcing: Andover Norton has, over the last ten years, offered to supply the Club Spares Scheme again and again. Nothing ever came of it bar the purchase of a handful of rotary parts for a spares scheme administrator. Ask yourself why the Club's Spares Scheme continues to spend your money with somebody whom I, as a member since the 1970s, remember as having been "problematic" for the club again and again. The recent legally insubstantial threat- that cost your money- is but one example.

What I publish on Andover Norton's webpages is what I believe is true. If a party concerned has a problem with my opinion they know where to find me. If that party can convince me that what I published is false I remove that statement immediately. In the case above that is highly unlikely.

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Colin Peterson at November 29. 2017

Time and again I see this issue, on this forum, of the relationship between the NOC, Norvil and Andover Norton. Personally I have sworn off buying anything from Norvil ever again, as I don't think it's a fit and proper business to receive my money, and parts that I have bought from them have, on more than one occasion, been inaccurately made or just substandard. Given the recent, costly farce arising from the litigious bent of Norvil's owner, I think it is long past time that the NOC ceased to do business with them.

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Neil Wyatt at November 29. 2017

Skip / John,

I waited 8 years with my request to the club for a set of 57/58 singles engine plates. I even sent the club the drawings but they said they needed the actual parts...Great. Then a very kind member from Victoria, AUS offered to have a set made for me. I bought two sets. The other I donated to the club as a template AFTER I confirmed that my set was a perfect fit. (Thanks Ian)

You don't even hear the club asking for genuine parts (List) that are much needed, so they can have batches made. We may as well have a face book swap shop for free. The only thing missing would be the roadholder brought to us by our wonderful editor. Business as usual?

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at November 29. 2017

hello well, I do know this topic will run and run So What Chance as any member of having parts made by this club  that are not available anywhere else,  I Think it well could be a big fat Zero when I buy parts I need they always come From RGM Motors, and every one has fitted correctly,  except for the poorly made Wassel copies of a pair of full-bore exhaust pipes   the left-hand side one fitted ok no bother, but the right-hand side one was another story, when I fitted to the Engine and screwed up the exhause rose  the end that fits into the silencer  was going under the frame and would not meet up with the silencer at all , So I rang Lorance  he said put them back in their box and send them back to me , I will  refund you,   so thats what I did  and later recived my payment  and no more said  so after this it was a long job hunting some that would fit corectly, but I got there, in the End, Had to have one right Pipe made to fit,  and I belive 70% of all 650 exhaust pipes are wrongly made, the atlas likewise,  its the after markets failings  and lot of other parts that are made for the commando and sold as dominator end up not fitting right, some parts from the commando will fit the dominator but some will not, So beawear Out their get to know your parts before buying anything,  do your research        yours   anna j

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Barry Carson at November 29. 2017

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by john_hall1 at November 30. 2017

Previously joe_seifert wrote:

Previously Peter White wrote:

This defamatory statement was brought to the attention of the NOC Exec some months ago and it’s very disappointing that Andover Norton have not yet seen fit to remove it. Our understanding is that the gaskets in question were indeed purchased by the club from that well known supplier based in Staffordshire. On enquiry they advised - and are prepared to swear an affidavit to the fact - that it was part of a consignment originating from - you guessed it.. Andover Norton...

Given that I cancelled the account of "Norvil Motorcycles" with Andover Norton half a decade ago- in fact on 1st October, 2012- I, too, would like to see the paper trail for what is clearly not sourced from us. In fact I declined to sell anything to that enterprise since that date.
As a common gasket does not normally have a shelf live of over 5 years you may ask yourself how believeable the claim from Mr.Emery is this was a gasket sourced from us.

And talking of sourcing: Andover Norton has, over the last ten years, offered to supply the Club Spares Scheme again and again. Nothing ever came of it bar the purchase of a handful of rotary parts for a spares scheme administrator. Ask yourself why the Club's Spares Scheme continues to spend your money with somebody whom I, as a member since the 1970s, remember as having been "problematic" for the club again and again. The recent legally insubstantial threat- that cost your money- is but one example.

What I publish on Andover Norton's webpages is what I believe is true. If a party concerned has a problem with my opinion they know where to find me. If that party can convince me that what I published is false I remove that statement immediately. In the case above that is highly unlikely.

So Joe why does the Spares scheme not respond to your overtures?

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Barry Carson at November 30. 2017

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Fritz Wettstein at November 30. 2017

Previously john_hall1 wrote:

So Joe why does the Spares scheme not respond to your overtures?

Good question!

Some years ago I've sent them two parts lists for lightweights which I've scanned my self into searchable PDFs. They never ever apeared on the NOC-shop.

Fritz

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by joe_seifert at November 30. 2017

Previously john_hall1 wrote:

Previously joe_seifert wrote:

Previously Peter White wrote:

This defamatory statement was brought to the attention of the NOC Exec some months ago and it’s very disappointing that Andover Norton have not yet seen fit to remove it. Our understanding is that the gaskets in question were indeed purchased by the club from that well known supplier based in Staffordshire. On enquiry they advised - and are prepared to swear an affidavit to the fact - that it was part of a consignment originating from - you guessed it.. Andover Norton...

Given that I cancelled the account of "Norvil Motorcycles" with Andover Norton half a decade ago- in fact on 1st October, 2012- I, too, would like to see the paper trail for what is clearly not sourced from us. In fact I declined to sell anything to that enterprise since that date.
As a common gasket does not normally have a shelf live of over 5 years you may ask yourself how believeable the claim from Mr.Emery is this was a gasket sourced from us.

And talking of sourcing: Andover Norton has, over the last ten years, offered to supply the Club Spares Scheme again and again. Nothing ever came of it bar the purchase of a handful of rotary parts for a spares scheme administrator. Ask yourself why the Club's Spares Scheme continues to spend your money with somebody whom I, as a member since the 1970s, remember as having been "problematic" for the club again and again. The recent legally insubstantial threat- that cost your money- is but one example.

What I publish on Andover Norton's webpages is what I believe is true. If a party concerned has a problem with my opinion they know where to find me. If that party can convince me that what I published is false I remove that statement immediately. In the case above that is highly unlikely.

So Joe why does the Spares scheme not respond to your overtures?

Ask them, not us. Quite frankly we aren't all that interested any more. What reasons the spares officer(s) has/have is open to speculation. I decline to speculate.

The thing that angers me most is that I support people I'd rather not, against my will, with my membership fees, and have done so for the four decades I have been a member of the NOC.
One of our staff has let his membership lapse already. I haven't- yet.

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by ian_soady at November 30. 2017

Does the club actually support any suppliers directly (other than allowing ads in Roadholder)? If so maybe this should be discussed at an AGM.

The most recent accounts I can find on the website are for 2015 and no mention is made here of any payments to suppliers, unless this included in "purchases" under the spares scheme heading.

Does the NOC have a policy when it comes to selecting parts suppliers?

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by Neil Wyatt at November 30. 2017

Not just the suppliers, Ian, but none existent parts to manufacture.

Does the NOC have a policy to help keep Norton's, other than Commando's on the road?

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by ian_cordes at November 30. 2017

Previously john_hall1 wrote:

We recently received this mail:

"I bought a full gasket set for an 850 Commando part no 06-5030 through the Norton Owners Club.
The cylinder base gasket has failed at the driveside rear after a very low mileage(less than 2000 miles).
Also, when I removed the head, the rear part of the composite gasket has moved, I noticed this at first because the oil drain hole was partially covered by the gasket. The head had been correctly torqued down after the recommended mileages & was not loose when removing the bolts."

....................................................................................................................................

Going back to the complaint about the base gasket, as has already been said, the owner would have to try pretty hard to make one fail. Once it is there, and properly torqued down, between a clean and level crankcase and likewise a clean and flat cylinder base, it can hardly go anywhere, unless something else has happened to cause it to fail. Therefore it is most unlikely to be the fault of the gasket. Jo would know that.

Likewise, 'the rear part of the composite (head) gasket has moved'....? How would it move, when pinned between clean and flat cylinder and head? Only if something else had caused it to, I would suggest. Maybe not so clean and flat; or not correctly torqued down. How does just the rear part of the gasket move?

...'was not loose when removing the bolts'? Hardly a description from an engineer; all of which makes one question the spanner-flinger's competence.

This story really should have been looked at closely by AN before posting up, rather than seizing the opportunity to use it as negative marketing. Perhaps sour grapes about the NOC?

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by john_hall1 at November 30. 2017

But why should AN have sour grapes about the NOC?

Surely the Club should have good relationships with Suppliers of parts, after all they are the Life-blood of the Motorcycle restoration and repair business and essential to Norton hobbyists!

And if one supplier  steps out of line you as a Club distance yourself from them, it is a common sense strategy!

 

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by lionel_yexley at December 03. 2017

John, did you not read Joe's earlier postings?

"Andover Norton has, over the last ten years, offered to supply the Club Spares Scheme again and again. Nothing ever came of it bar the purchase of a handful of rotary parts for a spares scheme administrator"

I have to say that I find this worrying as Andover Norton are the prime manufacturers of genuine Norton parts.  I would expect that the bulk of new spares, where available, would be purchased form them by the NOC.

 

Previously john_hall1 wrote:

But why should AN have sour grapes about the NOC?

Surely the Club should have good relationships with Suppliers of parts, after all they are the Life-blood of the Motorcycle restoration and repair business and essential to Norton hobbyists!

And if one supplier  steps out of line you as a Club distance yourself from them, it is a common sense strategy!

 

Re: Is this for Real? On the Andover Norton website!

Posted by David Cooper at December 03. 2017

There are a few baffling threads here.

I've no idea why the spares scheme should buy from dealers.  They choose what they wish to supply and, mostly,we benefit.  There's surely no reason why NOC should attempt to replicate what they do, is there?  It's not in our interests (or our suppliers' interests)- to compete with (or under-cut) our main suppliers.

I assumed the spares scheme was a way to provide things the dealers cannot or will not do.  Such as member to member sales, re-cycling old stock (e.g. from deceased members and their Estates), and (most important perhaps) procuring vital parts that are non-existent in the market.

How any of this can be done voluntarily is a mystery to me, and (however the scheme really does operate) I think we all owe a vote of thanks and gratitude for those who operate it.

If any of us thinks we could do better - let's step up!  I'm sure our services would be very welcome!

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