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Horn/ammeter issue

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Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at June 29. 2017
Can anyone help with this? '55 ES2 with standard combined horn/dip switch. When I press the horn button the horn (sort of) beeps (almost inaudible unless bike is running) and the ammeter flicks across to the +ve side. I think I should be looking for a short between the feed from the horn button to the horn and the connection from 3 on the lighting switch to the ammeter. But I'm no electrician. Any clues? BTW the return from the horn to the ammeter is connected to the other side and then on to the -ve side of the battery. Very grateful for any help. George

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at June 30. 2017
Previously George Phillips wrote:
Can anyone help with this? '55 ES2 with standard combined horn/dip switch. When I press the horn button the horn (sort of) beeps (almost inaudible unless bike is running) and the ammeter flicks across to the +ve side. I think I should be looking for a short between the feed from the horn button to the horn and the connection from 3 on the lighting switch to the ammeter. But I'm no electrician. Any clues? BTW the return from the horn to the ammeter is connected to the other side and then on to the -ve side of the battery. Very grateful for any help. George

 

  Hello  you are an engineer  if you press horn your using electric  so the ammeter response  with the use of electric used  and if you cannot hear the horn then fit one you can hear like an air horn   you can get them to play tunes  yours    Anna j

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at June 30. 2017
Quite right Anna. I am, albeit a mechanical services engineer. But even as a mechanical engineer I know that the horn does not pass through the ammeter but by-passes it. (Check the wring diagram). Hence my query. George

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by Barry Carson at June 30. 2017

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at June 30. 2017
have another go Barry - I'm sitting on the edge of the bed waiting for the other boot to drop! George

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by David Cooper at June 30. 2017

Sounds like a short from a live wire before the horn.  The horn button is always live after the voltage has passed the horn itself, and the horn button completes the circuit as it sends it to earth.  If the ammeter flickers, then there must be power reaching the horn from a metered circuit before the wire even reaches the horn.  If live reached the wire after the horn, it would short out straight to earth as soon as the horn button was touched.

Unless the horn is wrongly connected to the ammeter terminal o the output side beyond the battery rather then the input side before it.

Is there a loose wire whisker at one of the terminals inside the headlamp shell?  Using the switch as a junction box (as they do) makes it all too easy to wire it up wrong!  I'm sure mine is wrong because the ammeter always shows discharge but my battery never goes flat...

If all else fails, I'd blame it on a dodgy earth...but with no idea why that can give such strange results

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at June 30. 2017
I'm still absorbing all that David, Many thanks. Don't forget it's positive earth, so rather than sending the power to earth it takes it from the earth. But I take your point about the power reaching the horn from a metered circuit. I have checked the connections on the light switch. In fact I've had it all out and it seems OK. The horn circuit is: earth to button; button to horn; horn to "outlet" ie negative side of ammeter; ammeter to negative battery terminal. My view is that if there were a short after the horn across to the "inlet" side of the ammeter it would cause the ammeter to twitch and the horn would still work? G

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by David Cooper at June 30. 2017

Hi George - let's hope Al Osborne turns up here soon!  Does the wire from the horn go straight to the negative side of the meter, or does it (for some odd reason) make an excursion via a terminal on the switch?  If so, maybe there is something odd about the switch - and the horn is getting some of its power from both sides of the ammeter?  The place I wonder about is the combined horn/dip switch - but that's only live when the headlight is on so that shouldn't be the issue.

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at June 30. 2017
Previously George Phillips wrote:
Quite right Anna. I am, albeit a mechanical services engineer. But even as a mechanical engineer I know that the horn does not pass through the ammeter but by-passes it. (Check the wring diagram). Hence my query. George

 

 Hello    George the horn wire  is connected to the B+ side of the ammeter to number 2 switch and then blue wire out to dip switch and horn button from there it runs in a brown and black wire   to horn  on the positive side  and a black wire from the battery on the negative side  so if you press the horn button the ammeter will pick up of any battery drain  on put upon it!!   Your kindly  anna J

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by David Cooper at June 30. 2017

Sorry Anna but on every Norton wiring diagram I have the horn power doesn't run through the ammeter.  Of course the PO might simply have attached it to the wrong ammeter terminal...not that it matters anyway, does it? No harm done either way.

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by Barry Carson at July 01. 2017

battery might need a charge as you say it works when bike is started so i don't think its shorting .unless the horn has given up needing more amps to work it .

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at July 01. 2017
Thanks to all of you for your interest. Just to answer a few points - David, the wire TO the horn comes from the horn button and the wire FROM the horn goes to the +ve side of the ammeter and then direct to the -ve battery terminal. Anna - colour codes are irrelevant on my bike as, being 60+ years old, they are a jumble of old and new. Nevertheless,the horn does not connect to the lighting switch either on the bike or on the wiring diagram. Barry - I'll check the battery today but that doesn't explain why the ammeter flicks into the +ve area when I press the button? All very interesting! George

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at July 01. 2017
Previously George Phillips wrote:
Thanks to all of you for your interest. Just to answer a few points - David, the wire TO the horn comes from the horn button and the wire FROM the horn goes to the +ve side of the ammeter and then direct to the -ve battery terminal. Anna - colour codes are irrelevant on my bike as, being 60+ years old, they are a jumble of old and new. Nevertheless,the horn does not connect to the lighting switch either on the bike or on the wiring diagram. Barry - I'll check the battery today but that doesn't explain why the ammeter flicks into the +ve area when I press the button? All very interesting! George

 

 
Hello George   Will the wiring Diagram I have here is for my 1954 featherbed  Model 88 Dominator  which terminal number 2  has two wire coming from it  one goes too  the dip switch and the other one goes too the ammeter  +plus  side   I should know has I wired the Bike myself and my Norton 650 Manxman is the same  set up but an SA41 lighting  switch were has the Model 88 is a U34  lighting switch, but since I looked at my many wiring diagrams I found out that you are right  mate   your is wired so it does not go though the lighting switch  it comes directly from the battery  has dosed the BSA A10  Posted  wiring diagram   yours  , Anna J
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Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by michael_sullivan at July 01. 2017

George:  Have you tested the horn itself?  Remove the horn and the battery and run some test wires direct to the horn from the battery.  Maybe the horn is defective?

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by Alan Osborn at July 01. 2017
I have arrived! !) Ignore any words from AJD there is no electrical knowledge there. The point that the Ammeter flicks the wrong way is totally correct. First the ammeter rule-there is a charge circuit to the Ammeter, there is a discharge circuit (lights, ignition) and there is the battery. The rule is the battery is on its own. The other two two go together. Now we brake the rule!! The horn and the stop light (on Dommie or such) can go direct on the battery as A) they have intermittent usage, B) the horn at least can have high current not too good for Ammeter. Now the phenomenon of the ammeter going the wrong way, this is because the engine is running and the horn power is coming from the generator not from the battery. If this doesn't explain it then give me a call some time or look closely at the wiring diagram. In fact when you are riding along if the Ammeter flicks 'charge' when the stop light is activated, this is a handy check that the stop lamp is working.

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at July 02. 2017
The voice of reason, Al. Many thanks. Will do some check this afternoon. G

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at July 02. 2017
Right - some checks carried out. Thought I'd answer via this thread rather than call, Al, lest there's someone out there with similar ghost problems. 1) Horn checked with external battery - OK 2) battery voltage checked (no load) 7.2V 3) Horn button pressed no engine, almost no beep, ammeter flicks to +ve. 4) Horn button pressed, engine on tick-over, no beep, ammeter flicks to +ve. 5) Horn button pressed, engine on high revs, horn works, ammeter flicks to +ve 6) engine off, brake light activated, ammeter flicks to +ve. So in a nutshell, Al was of course correct about the flicking to +ve although I can't understand why it does that with the engine not running. Other than that I think I've been tilting at windmills. I've been chasing a fault that doesn't exist. Very grateful for all the interest and input. Hope it's been of use to someone out there. It certainly has for me. George

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by Barry Carson at July 02. 2017

is the horn a 6 volt type

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at July 03. 2017
Previously alan_osborn wrote:
I have arrived! !) Ignore any words from AJD there is no electrical knowledge there. The point that the Ammeter flicks the wrong way is totally correct. First the ammeter rule-there is a charge circuit to the Ammeter, there is a discharge circuit (lights, ignition) and there is the battery. The rule is the battery is on its own. The other two two go together. Now we brake the rule!! The horn and the stop light (on Dommie or such) can go direct on the battery as A) they have intermittent usage, B) the horn at least can have high current not too good for Ammeter. Now the phenomenon of the ammeter going the wrong way, this is because the engine is running and the horn power is coming from the generator not from the battery. If this doesn't explain it then give me a call some time or look closely at the wiring diagram. In fact when you are riding along if the Ammeter flicks 'charge' when the stop light is activated, this is a handy check that the stop lamp is working.

 

 
 In answer this statement I have wired up a number of Norton's and BSA's  Honda's and Suzuki's  but after each one, they all worked right and even pass M.O.T's how do you account for this with no electrical knowledge then !  and even my Norton 650 Manxman work right and there are no wiring diagrams for this Has the ones in the Haynes manual for Norton twins is the wrong one for this model. And upgraded it to 12volts 
         yours   anna j  

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at July 03. 2017
Barry - I haven't actually checked but it look and sounds like a normal 6V unit. I'll have a look on the back of it today just to be sure.

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by robert_tuck at July 03. 2017

Keep posting Anna,  Some forums are so deadly dull that no one posts for months,  You do have usefull and relevant information tucked away and an obsession with a rare old blue Norton,(no where near as rare as a 650 DL!) we are all a bit odd one way or another and I hope we are all mature enough to make allowances for the health  problems that us oldies face.

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by Charles Bovington at July 03. 2017

Odd, but my later, 1960, Norton Owners manual shows the horn feed being taken direct from the -ve terminal of the battery for the ES2 and model 50 with , in the case of the 88 and 99 and the earlier model 7 the feed comes from the + terminal of the ammeter .

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at July 03. 2017
Barry - no indication of the voltage on the horn. But with the engine running it sounds like your standard mid-fifties hooter. Also when checked with an external 6V fully charged battery it sounds fine.

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by Barry Carson at July 03. 2017

at least you know the horn is ok .have you a main fuse on the battery.  that would blow indicating a fault /short ect. i am not an electrical expert just trying to help.

Barry

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by Alan Osborn at July 03. 2017
Previously George Phillips wrote:
Right - some checks carried out. Thought I'd answer via this thread rather than call, Al, lest there's someone out there with similar ghost problems. 1) Horn checked with external battery - OK 2) battery voltage checked (no load) 7.2V 3) Horn button pressed no engine, almost no beep, ammeter flicks to +ve. 4) Horn button pressed, engine on tick-over, no beep, ammeter flicks to +ve. 5) Horn button pressed, engine on high revs, horn works, ammeter flicks to +ve 6) engine off, brake light activated, ammeter flicks to +ve. So in a nutshell, Al was of course correct about the flicking to +ve although I can't understand why it does that with the engine not running. Other than that I think I've been tilting at windmills. I've been chasing a fault that doesn't exist. Very grateful for all the interest and input. Hope it's been of use to someone out there. It certainly has for me. George
1-6 tests above=observations-1)OK 2)sounds a bit high, unless engine is running in which case it is correct. 3)/4) does not make much sense would have to check over the phone to find out what is going on. 5) This is fine if horn is connected straight to the battery. 6)This is the same oddity as 3/4). Now, IF the engine is NOT running, and the stop and horn are wired direct to the battery, when they are operated then the power comes from the battery direct to the horn/stop it cannot come through the ammeter. unless there is a strange fault/miss-connection. I think we need to talk George. Al

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at July 03. 2017
Thanks Al. I'll consider that lot in the morning and give you a call during the day. Many thanks - George

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at July 04. 2017
Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Keep posting Anna,  Some forums are so deadly dull that no one posts for months,  You do have usefull and relevant information tucked away and an obsession with a rare old blue Norton,(no where near as rare as a 650 DL!) we are all a bit odd one way or another and I hope we are all mature enough to make allowances for the health  problems that us oldies face.

Hello ROB  the 650 de-lux is a very nice bike even I would not mind one mayself or the  Norton grey 650 standard  But I just must say this the first 650  the Norton Manxman was top of its class  and a fantastic bike to own and ride  its like it was made just for you !!! I have privet information where the first one to be built is hiding  and is up for sale  But I have no indication of what the owner wants in cash terms for this machine,   but I do have his contact details   Yours   Anna J   

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by Alan Osborn at July 10. 2017

AJD is off topic again.

George let me know the results of our phone call, I think a lot will improve once you get the battery charging properly.

Re: Horn/ammeter issue

Posted by George Phillips at July 11. 2017
Hi Al - et al - A double check on the battery voltage gave a reading of 6.3. In attempting to trace the "fault" I managed to disable the main/dip bulb. When I pushed all the cables back into the h/lamp shell in disgust, the bulb suddenly worked. I'm off to the IoM at the end of August so have decided to live with this strange anomaly (the horn) until I get back in September. After all, we're not supposed to use the horn when stationary anyway! I'll continue to ponder it but I'm not going digging into the wiring for fear of causing more damage. It will become one of my winter projects. George
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