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Ethanol

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Ethanol

Posted by roger_johnson at February 22. 2017

There is no Ethanol free petrol without a fair ride near where I live. What  Ethanol protection do others use in their fuel?

I have been looking at Millers EPS Ethanol Protection.

What will they put in fuel next? Roger

Re: Ethanol

Posted by Gordon Johnston at February 22. 2017

A splash of 2 stroke oil is what my long-past-their-scrap-by-date bikes get by on. Shouldn't a 961 be ethanol proof being a modern design?

Re: Ethanol

Posted by George Phillips at February 22. 2017
It would help if we knew where you loved, Roger! George

Re: Ethanol

Posted by graham_leblond at February 22. 2017

Im sure his private life is his own but where Roger lived would assist Wink

Re: Ethanol

Posted by roger_johnson at February 25. 2017

Previously graham_leblond wrote:

Im sure his private life is his own but where Roger lived would assist Wink

Well spotted, it tells us what Graham is mostly thinking about.

I live East Dorset. I would really like to know what additive to use as I am not sure fuel companies can always be trusted.

Thanks Roger

Re: Ethanol

Posted by john_evans1 at February 25. 2017

If the 961 has a catalytic converter then two stroke is known to damage it.

Re: Ethanol

Posted by Neil Wyatt at February 25. 2017

OK, listen in:

There is only one brand of E0 pump fuel that I know of, and that is not available in Scotland, The Teesside distribution area and that even includes Ripon in North Yorkshire. (Avoid it) And the South West that I believe to be Devon and Cornwall.

The fuel is Esso Supreme Synergy + 97 Ron and has a red label. I have found that the ESSO EN228 (5% Ethanol) has a blue label and NO +

East Dorset; you could be OK but check out your nearest Esso but NOT one with a Tesco express shop, this is Tesco fuel.

I buy mine from Harrogate and Tadcaster, where here I filled up the car only today.

I wouldn't put that bio solvent in anything I own!

You get a better mpg from E0 too.

If you are desperate for E0, you can go into a large garden machinery shop and buy a gallon (About £20) of Aspen, this is pure petrol that can be safely left in Lawnmowers etc without fear of ethanol damage over a lay up period, bit like our bikes. Ethanol proof or not, it will not stop phase separation!

Avoid EN228.

Esso have told me that they have no intention of adding Ethanol to this fuel. (But keep watching that label)

What next? Actually there is a similar sounding renewable that does not create the damage of ethanol but currently too expensive to produce.

Leaving the EU should help reduce the pressure on ethanol legislation, however, it will always be there until the Ed Miliband 2008 Climate change Act is rescinded. (Too big to fail?) With it is the RFfTO : Renewable fuels for Transport Obligation the reason why we are in this mess.

The Green blob takes away your choices, just look how Hillary Benn imposed cr*p and expensive light bulbs on us!  Don't let the bug*ers take your Norton too.  Thank you ESSO!

Re: Ethanol

Posted by martin_jones1 at February 26. 2017

Previously Neil Wyatt wrote:

OK, listen in:

There is only one brand of E0 pump fuel that I know of, and that is not available in Scotland, The Teesside distribution area and that even includes Ripon in North Yorkshire. (Avoid it) And the South West that I believe to be Devon and Cornwall.

The fuel is Esso Supreme Synergy + 97 Ron and has a red label. I have found that the ESSO EN228 (5% Ethanol) has a blue label and NO +

East Dorset; you could be OK but check out your nearest Esso but NOT one with a Tesco express shop, this is Tesco fuel.

I buy mine from Harrogate and Tadcaster, where here I filled up the car only today.

I wouldn't put that bio solvent in anything I own!

You get a better mpg from E0 too.

If you are desperate for E0, you can go into a large garden machinery shop and buy a gallon (About £20) of Aspen, this is pure petrol that can be safely left in Lawnmowers etc without fear of ethanol damage over a lay up period, bit like our bikes. Ethanol proof or not, it will not stop phase separation!

Avoid EN228.

Esso have told me that they have no intention of adding Ethanol to this fuel. (But keep watching that label)

What next? Actually there is a similar sounding renewable that does not create the damage of ethanol but currently too expensive to produce.

Leaving the EU should help reduce the pressure on ethanol legislation, however, it will always be there until the Ed Miliband 2008 Climate change Act is rescinded. (Too big to fail?) With it is the RFfTO : Renewable fuels for Transport Obligation the reason why we are in this mess.

The Green blob takes away your choices, just look how Hillary Benn imposed cr*p and expensive light bulbs on us!  Don't let the bug*ers take your Norton too.  Thank you ESSO!

 

 

Hello Neil and other fellows.

I read with interest the above articles on the bad news regarding Ethanol.

It has no advantage over petrol except that it burns amight slower than petrol. Gives a more steam engine type push on the piston.

To come at Ethanol from a different direction.

Making  fibres for the manufacture of heavy wearing cloth. They use plant fibres like.  Kapok, Jute,and Bamboo etc.  However making such fibres for cloth from a more plentiful source ie Trees.  Yes. By stripping the wood fibres from trees and changing it chemically to wood cellulose and then onto garment fibre. With the aid of an acid and  ethanol, thats how its done. However.  After which the acid is separated and the  ethanol is a waste product and snapped up by our chemical giants and put into petrol for their  profit.

Ethanol can be removed from petrol  using water and a big tin can.

Ethanol is highly hydroscopic.

With a big  petrol tank pour in a pint of warm tap water . Then fill it up with your petrol. Put the cap on give it a good shake then leave it for a couple of days. The Ethanol absorbs  the water and becomes separated from the petrol.  Now.  Just in so crack open the petrol tap and let  a pint and a half drip, drip from the tank and when its water free, it will be just  proper petrol.

Yes guys. Its  a big ball ache of a thing to do.

Sorry to bore you.

Kind regards to all fellow members

Martin Jones    Hull      of  EY. NOC

 

 

iT

 

 

 

Re: Ethanol

Posted by Neil Wyatt at February 26. 2017

Thanks Martin,

Of course, Humberside has the biggest ethanol plant in the UK since the Teesside plant was mothballed and they are pushing hard for E10! More profit for them, more grief for us.

The BIG problem with the ethanol removal method is that ethanol increases octane and much of this petrol is sub standard, obviously low octane is better with the solvent removed if leaving it to settle in your tank,  but at a cost.

The Aspen fuel I referred to comes from Sweden and although expensive, it is E0.

The best bet however is to fill up with Esso Synergy Supreme + (97 Ron), good stuff to start with. (Red label)

Out in the car, I just fill a couple of plastic cans...Simples.

Use it or lose it.  It's all we have left at the pumps I believe.

I hope all have this message now.

Re: Ethanol

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 26. 2017

Hello roger,

I suggest that you check your handbook to be sure but ethanol is not likely to cause any damage to a modern machine. Ethanol has been allowed in petrol for probably the last twenty years so all vehicles manufacturers should have produced accordingly.  It is only old classic vehicles with fibreglass tanks etc which have problems.

Patrick

 

Re: Ethanol

Posted by john_holmes at February 26. 2017

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hello roger,

I suggest that you check your handbook to be sure but ethanol is not likely to cause any damage to a modern machine. Ethanol has been allowed in petrol for probably the last twenty years so all vehicles manufacturers should have produced accordingly.  It is only old classic vehicles with fibreglass tanks etc which have problems.

Patrick

Sadly not true, there maybe less problems on modern bikes but not none, cue issues with Ducati plastic petrol tanks (just Google it for lots of examples) and even BMW's.

 

http://www.cycleworld.com/real-world-look-at-alcohol-in-your-tank#page-3

Re: Ethanol

Posted by john_evans1 at February 26. 2017

Very true with regard to new vehicles being damaged by ehanol. Bmw,triumph,Ducati,Aprilia,Guzzi and others all suffer bubbling and distortion of their plastic fuel tanks. All made by Acerbis I believe.

I had a low mileage multistrada which dumped its fuel on my shed floor due to ethanol distorting the base flange. I could only fix it using aircraft sealanr. In America they accept there is an issue and replace the tank. Here they deny responsibility and deny ethanol causes harm.

Triumph? 955 sprint tank swelling up so that it no longer fitted the frame spar. Triumph deny ethanol is the issue and refuse to investigate. Vosa likewise..I tried!!

Bmw? 1150rs. Swollen tank and bubbling....not through ethanol of course.

Nowadays I would not touch any bike with a plastic tank,in fact the manufacturers have mainly gone back to metal..I wonder why if there is no known link?

Re: Ethanol

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 26. 2017

It seems very strange that only motorcycles appear to be affected by ethanol. If my memory serves me right Ducati were taken to court in the US (and lost) for continuing to use a grade of plastic which was not suitable for American fuel despite a Notice being served by the appropriate authority notifying the use of higher percentage ethanol years before. It would seem that in some cases at least motorcycle manufacturers were at fault in continuing to use outdated technology and were passing off shoddy manufactured goods.

I have a modern high performance but with low usage BMW sports car (handbook says up to 10% ethanol acceptable) which has performed faultlessly over the last three years;  our Renault Megane (up to 10% acceptable)has performed faultlessly as well over the last five years as have the lawn mowers.  The lawn mowers sit unused for months -October to March- and start up without any problems or special servicing. We have several classic cars, MGBs, Volvo P1800 and a Morris Isis as well and all start up with no problems.  In fact only the Morris has shown any re-action to ethanol.  It needs the petrol filter regularly cleaned as current petrol makes a good job of cleaning out the petrol tank and fuel lines and the dirt gets caught up in the filter.

None of the Norton Jubilees or Navigators have any real problems either. So ethanol is getting the blame for problems not of it's making.

 

Re: Ethanol

Posted by john_evans1 at February 26. 2017

I agree that motorcycles suffer more however I cannot agree that cars are unaffected. there is too much anecdotal and direct evidence within individual forums to suggest that our reliance on ethanol is causing issues.

My old bikes have to be drained if left unused otherwise the fuel eats zinc,copper and brass. the water residue will separate and rot the tanks. old cars suffer similar fates.

The use of ethanol is not new.We used during and after the war but in those days vehicles were less reliable and regularly being stripped for a decode etc hence parts were renewed.

Today we use hard valve seats,special valve material and injection systems designed to cope with a designated ethanol content.As a result they are reliable. even car fuel tanks are made of better grade plastics.

Mowers etc will run on virtually any petrol you can find. my old side valve mower is often forced to run on left over premix from my chainsaw..another machine known to suffer from ethanol as it rots the fuel lines!

I researched ethanol at length after the Ducati problems.I sent  a thesis to my M.P. But he could not fight my corner due to i.e. Being an E.U.dictat! I am not a scientist but using logic combined with documentary evidence there are grounds to say the we suffer as a result of the fuel we are forced to use in our old vehicles.New are less of an issue.

The truth is that we have to use the damn stuff to appease U.S. legislation which is designed to keep their farmers in business growing plants to make the ethanol. maybe not entirely true but close to the mark.

Even Vosa a feel there is a problem but will not act without a huge number of complaints.I offered to donate my Ducati to them if they could use it to prove a point. they declined as it was insufficient evidence!

Re: Ethanol

Posted by Neil Wyatt at February 27. 2017

Well said, John.

Patrick, if you are happy to use ethanol in your fuel then one shouldn't argue against that and respect your choice. The issue is one of choice, a choice the Green blob do not want us to have. Remember Hillary Benn withdrawing a decent light bulb from the domestic market, without a choice! Thank goodness for Esso!

Patrick suggested that Ethanol (This time around) has been with us for 20 years, well not in the UK, barely ten years. The evidence suggests that Tesco and Morison's (Super markets) were first to introduce ethanol blends in 2006 and a problem soon found with failed oxygen meters failing due to this stuff (Ethanol 35% oxygen) being open to the atmosphere. (South East corridor) They didn't know the extent of the hygroscopic nature of this stuff back then. Tell you what though, someone paid a fortune for those breakdowns and expensive parts to keep it as quiet as possible. They never came clean)

The Petseal in two of my three sealed tanks, by 2007 disolved and caused a lot of damage, not in my 16H because I had not filled it up during this ethanol introduction period. That Petseal is as solid today and is a no go zone for ethanol. In the UK, as said we have only one pump E0 fuel, keep that in mind.

The US of A has been mentioned, I have driven a fair bit there and always found E0 fuel. Some states such as Maine have banned ethanol, just as the Aviation authority has done, for good reason. In Green States such as CA, (Boxer has much to answer for) E0 is a little more difficult to find. However, you will find E0 at any Marina, fuel known as Marine quality! Check out the law suits and the problems with moulded in fibreglass boat fuel tanks. A problem when a certain fuel is imposed by stealth!

In the UK they thought they would get away with 5% by stealth and nobody would notice. (A bit like Gordon Brown withdrawing the 10p starting tax rate) Well we were soon to find out but it was put into law (RFfTO) that at 5% it didn't need to be marked up with a warning and no liability as a result. Buyer beware indeed! That is why, John that nobody is interested in your ethanol damage or mine. Total scam!

The FHBVC is a part of the establishment and a big part of the problem, their support of E5 as some sort of legacy fuel is an example of what actual users of old vehicles are up against. How long before we are left with just museum pieces? And all the riding will be in lovely countries such as E0, NZ?

I can go on but that's it for now but just remember this, failure is when you give up. Don't let the Green blob get away with it again, Choice is my theme this time.

Neil.

Re: Ethanol

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 27. 2017

Neil,

Roger asked a reasonable question probably because he had heard so many scare stories about ethanol.  He has no need to worry about his modern Norton 961 as it will most probably be constructed to comply with the Construction & Use Regulations. We should apologise to him for hi-jacking his thread.

Petrol tanks by law had to be made of steel from way back in 1973; the exception was for CERTAIN plastic tanks which were supposed to be specifically tested to comply with the Regulations current at the time.  Ethanol was allowed for use at 5% from I think 1988 and it was certainly introduced to UK petrol from 2002.

I was a high mileage motorist (30,000 miles per year) for a lot of years up to say 2010. I have never had an ethanol related problem on any of my cars and they were all petrol engined.

Patrick

 

 

Re: Ethanol

Posted by robert_tuck at February 27. 2017

Current engines should not have problems , thats not to say they won't. Two vehicles on my drive have faults that a competant designer would not have allowed 80 years ago. Mercedes Benz and Ford,  Has anyone heard of these names before? do they have any history in making cars?. I am not confident that they are fully on board with issues that infrequent use with ethanol  brings.

Re: Ethanol

Posted by Neil Wyatt at February 28. 2017

Well done to you, Patrick for not having an ethanol problem to date. Are you going to apologise to those that have suffered loss? And are you looking forward to E10?

I have studied the ethanol problem since I became a victim in 2006/7.  We know about Cleveland Discol in the 60's for example but I don't see even an ethanol discussion in the UK before 2005 so where you got 1988 and 2002 from, I really don't know?

There might not have been such a big issue if the stakeholders, government and fuel companies had been honest and told us what was going on. Think of all those wrecked fibreglass tanks but worse still the danger of a tank leaking onto a hot engine.

I note an increase in vehicle fires, just recently a TVR went up in flames not too far from me. Ethanol requires a different kind of foam to attack ethanol flames.  This is dangerous stuff.

But still there is NO long term cure for phase separation!

The stabaliser chemicals such as those endorsed by FBHVC are not the answer, they just slow down the process.

One more time, thank you Esso!

Re: Ethanol

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 28. 2017

BS4040 1988 Published May 1988 replaced by BS4040 1997.

Re: Ethanol

Posted by George Phillips at February 28. 2017
Oops! My apols for my earlier typo but I see I'm not the only one. The correct term is hygroscopic (capable of absorbing water) rather than hydroscopic which I think is something to do with viewing things underwater. But maybe that's what Martin meant! On a more se note does the presence of ethanol mean that if the bike sits there for a month or two without use the petrol tank will have layer of water in the bottom or is the water absorbed into the fuel - giving rise to tons of water vapour in the exhaust?

Re: Ethanol

Posted by George Phillips at February 28. 2017
For se read serious!

Re: Ethanol

Posted by ian_cordes at February 28. 2017

George. The water separates from the fuel, and being heavier, sits on the bottom of the tank. This in turn can lead to corrosion of the tank, and water going into the carburettor when you next turn the petrol on, causing starting issues. Meanwhile, any fuel which is sitting in the carb/fuel lines will be doing it's best to dissolve them. I have found it necessary to sonically clean the carburettor before start-up in such a situation.

Best thing is, if you know you will not be riding the bike for a while, switch the petrol off up the road before you get home, running it dry. Good timing is handy here, or you may face a bit of a push...! Then, drain the tank.

Ian

Re: Ethanol

Posted by John Oldridge at February 28. 2017

Hi Neil

I always use BP ultimate on my M50 (assuming it was ethanol free), I even used to ask at the BP in Ripon (near the clock tower) if it was zero E and was advised it was. also the BP  near Pannal ( leaving Harrogate) Have I been told porkys?

Regards John O

Re: Ethanol

Posted by richard_evans at February 28. 2017

Contrary to the popular belief there are very places where Ethanol Free fuel is available.  According to Esso the nearest to my own location is 40 miles away.

BP Customer Services told me that all BP grades contain 5% Ethanol

There was a lot of discussion and information on the forum a few months ago which can be found using the search facility.

Re: Ethanol

Posted by Neil Wyatt at February 28. 2017

Working my way up:

Richard, You are correct, All BP pump fuels sadly now contain 5% ethanol. This changed from Summer 2016 when they advertised their new fuels!

My advice would be to take a couple of cans with you next time you are passing E0 in a car or fill the bike. It is all you can do, other than have expensive racing fuel delivered  or the purchase of Aspen.

John, depends when you asked them. After Summer 2016 it was all E5. I did read one paper where forecourt staff were ordered not to get involved in discussions on ethanol with customers. The Esso in Bilton, Harrogate, on the A59, opposite Majestic wine is not too far away and they dispense Synergy Supreme+ (97 Ron)

Ian, your advice is spot on if you are left with no choice but E5.  So much for choice!

George, my understanding of phase separation is that you will be left with a layer of water and ethanol at the bottom of your tank.  Not for me thanks.

And Patrick, I think you are splitting hairs a bit here. BS4040 is the grade for 4* Leaded.  The problem is, though technically legally available, I don't know anyone who sells it now. I used to buy mine from Northern Energy at the top of the hill on the Ripon Road, just outside of Harrogate. Unfortunately there was only one supplier, 'Bayford Thrust' who mixed their 4* Leaded using E0 Super unleaded. By 2012, Bayford Thrust would not break bulk and would only deliver a full tanker, Northern Energy could not take this amount on one pump and hence I have not seen pump 4* leaded since. The standard for BS4040 does mean E0. Incidentally, the standard for ordinary unleaded (95 RON usually) is BS7070. All of this grade is now EN228 or 5% Ethanol.  In other words 100% no choice at this grade! For the record, Murco were the last company to offer E0 not super unleaded. They had just one refinery but Murco is no more.

Where are our choices? Remember Hillary Benn taking away your choice of light bulbs, this is no different.  What are we going to do, wait for E10 and go home?

Re: Ethanol

Posted by Neil Wyatt at February 28. 2017

Incidentally, Information is sketchy (Intentionally a dogs dinner) and I spent many hours getting to the bottom of what is going on. If the government can get away with selling ethanol they will because it will help them meet their renewable target. The lower mpg will mean more visits to the pumps and hence more ethanol sold.

Thank you Esso.

Re: Ethanol

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at February 28. 2017

Hello For what this is worth  We're all slaves to the big oil  Giants But up to now I had no Trouble with Ethanol  In my Norton Manxman 650. But these Machines were built for the America Market  and  Ethanol  was around  back then  so something has changed in the fuel mix   or most is coming  from growing  palm oil, wheat and sugarcane mixture     yours   anna j  

Re: Ethanol

Posted by Charles Bovington at February 28. 2017

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Hello For what this is worth  We're all slaves to the big oil  Giants But up to now I had no Trouble with Ethanol  In my Norton Manxman 650. But these Machines were built for the America Market  and  Ethanol  was around  back then  so something has changed in the fuel mix   or most is coming  from growing  palm oil, wheat and sugarcane mixture     yours   anna j  

As my father often said to me,'its not often your right, but you are wrong again'. Ethanol was not used in gasoline , either in USA or here when your Manxman  was built. Turn of the milenium is a better date for widespread use.

Re: Ethanol

Posted by Neil Wyatt at February 28. 2017

About right Charles for the US big Agg lobby. And 2005 in the UK, spread Nationally by 2007.

Anna,  Palm oil is not in ethanol as far as I am aware but very much is included with bio diesel.

Imagine burning down the Indonesian rain forests to plant Palm oil!

That's what is happening, even without the smoke, how Green is that?

Re: Ethanol

Posted by robert_tuck at March 01. 2017

Took my carb down yesterday to unblock the by pass , the bottom of the chamber pitted and furry with corrosion.Not something seen with real petrol.Bike is used at least every few weeks. This damage is from way back before we were aware .

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