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hard to find Neutral

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hard to find Neutral

Posted by maurice_cloud at September 21. 2017

Hi all. I am new to this so bear that in mind Tongue out

 

I got my 77`850 Mk3 Commando last year and ever since I have had a problem to get Neutral, I get all the gears no problem but coming down the box from 2nd it go through Neutral to 1st and then ist back to 2nd on very rare times it hits Neutral and the light comes on but most times it doesn't get Neutral,  it does not matter if I am coming up to traffic lights junction`s etc on even standing still it does the same thing..... now for everyone who is going to say it`s the Clutch it still does the same even with the engine Not running, I will just say what I have done to try and cure the problem so here goes......

I have stripped all the clutch and washed all the plates and drum etc and they are the fiber ones and all are now totally clean and it still does the same thing as before I stripped it, so off came the outer gearbox cover and I replaced the ratchet plate and the Pawl and both the springs and made sure that it was the right way round and a few other parts that I thought it needed ....but hay ho.... it still does the same..... so hope someone can help me find the problem..... as the next thing is when my riding season is done I will be taken the inner and outer gearbox off and having a look inside to see what is going on... oh I have also replaced the Detent and spring still does the same Cry

 

Cheers Mo

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by john_holmes at September 21. 2017

Check the primary chain tensioner, if the chain gets tight then neutral is hard to get.

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by Alan Throssell at September 21. 2017

Hi Mo, Sounds to me like you've done everything to try fix this problem, I'm going to give it some thought Undecided

Sorry I can't offer help right now.

Regards, Alan

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by richard_payne at September 21. 2017

Have you had a look at the neutral switch ? The Mk3 has a switch operated by a button on the camplate. The switch itself is adjustable (it screws in and has a locknut).

If the switch is screwed even slightly too far in, it will have the effect of acting like an 'anti-detent' on the neutral position. The plunger / brass switch body will push the cam back one way or the other.

It's a problem as if it is not screwed in far enough, it will not work consistently.  I remember causing this effect on mine years ago.

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by maurice_cloud at September 21. 2017
Previously john_holmes wrote:

Check the primary chain tensioner, if the chain gets tight then neutral is hard to get.

Hi John The primary Chain on a Mk3 is all done by two Hydraulic tensioners so they are Not adjustable

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by maurice_cloud at September 21. 2017
Previously richard_payne wrote:

Have you had a look at the neutral switch ? The Mk3 has a switch operated by a button on the camplate. The switch itself is adjustable (it screws in and has a locknut).

If the switch is screwed even slightly too far in, it will have the effect of acting like an 'anti-detent' on the neutral position. The plunger / brass switch body will push the cam back one way or the other.

It's a problem as if it is not screwed in far enough, it will not work consistently.  I remember causing this effect on mine years ago.

Hi Richard Yes, I have even tried to do the Neutral switch in and out and even done it so it was right out so it did not work and still had the same problem of Not getting Neutral... it`s all getting a bit of a nightmare... the next thing as I said was to strip it down and look at the camplate to see if there is anything wrong there ?

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by robert_tuck at September 21. 2017

Bent gearbox shaft? ,tight bushes, no end float, rusty or bent  clutch rod.plates not flat.wobbly drum on loose bearing.

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by maurice_cloud at September 21. 2017

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Bent gearbox shaft? ,tight bushes, no end float, rusty or bent  clutch rod.plates not flat.wobbly drum on loose bearing.

 

HI Robert

I have checked out the push rod and that is fine both for rust and being not bent same with the Clutch plates they are fine even replaced the Clutch Centre and the bearing still the same,

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by robert_tuck at September 22. 2017

I had a poor gearchange for years on my 99,and fiddled with everything to little result. A big improvement came after fettling a gear and shaft to remove rough surfaces that were making the change stiff, at the same time a new spider stopped the clutch putting pressure on the sleeve gear,a set of oversize rollers cut drum wobble and contact between the plates and the drum.Setting spring heights with a dial guage and a new primary chain to cure a tight spot all helped and finally a new nylon lined cable passing through a new hole in the gearbox plates. I now only need a non existing longer gear lever to allow me to wear my new bigger Daytona boots !. May have to make one.

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by christopher_winsby at September 22. 2017

I run with less than one turn clearance on the clutch adjuster.

For Testing only, remove all clearance in the clutch adjustment and cable.See if you can get neutral more easy.

Did you check clutch Drum and center for grooving.?

Check plates of flatness, tangs for spreading.

You have probably checked al these but thought I would mention them.

It sounds like you have looked at all the easy things. If still riding take it easy, How many miles has it done, and do you know its history? A full gearbox strip is expensive, time consuming and a pain to do. But a seized gearbox can cost a lot more.

It is probably something simple but will need sorting.

Have you checked the gear selectors.

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by john_holmes at September 22. 2017

Previously maurice_cloud wrote:

Previously john_holmes wrote:

Check the primary chain tensioner, if the chain gets tight then neutral is hard to get.


Hi John The primary Chain on a Mk3 is all done by two Hydraulic tensioners so they are Not adjustable
 
Which is why I said tensioner instead of adjuster, they may be stuck in a too tight position.

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by maurice_cloud at September 23. 2017

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

I had a poor gearchange for years on my 99,and fiddled with everything to little result. A big improvement came after fettling a gear and shaft to remove rough surfaces that were making the change stiff, at the same time a new spider stopped the clutch putting pressure on the sleeve gear,a set of oversize rollers cut drum wobble and contact between the plates and the drum.Setting spring heights with a dial guage and a new primary chain to cure a tight spot all helped and finally a new nylon lined cable passing through a new hole in the gearbox plates. I now only need a non existing longer gear lever to allow me to wear my new bigger Daytona boots !. May have to make one.

 

I have put new primary chain as well as the clutch hub centre and bearing ..but as I said you can not even get Neutral even with the bike not running....but it gets a right pain when you come to traffic lights or a junctions..... I think I am lousing my mind as without taken the inner and out box off and having a look at whats going on in there I can`t do anymore still think it might be the cam plate as it has not got a nice click when you go from 1st to second or 2nd to 1st it seems like there is no Nuetral ...so again I am thinking is the groove in the cam plate warn and the detent plunger cant locate the groove,

the next qeustion can the gearbox be taken apart without taken the primary apart ?

 

oh one more thing what are the best plates to run in a mk3 as I have got Fibre plates

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by maurice_cloud at September 23. 2017

Previously christopher_winsby wrote:

I run with less than one turn clearance on the clutch adjuster.

For Testing only, remove all clearance in the clutch adjustment and cable.See if you can get neutral more easy.

Did you check clutch Drum and center for grooving.?

Check plates of flatness, tangs for spreading.

You have probably checked al these but thought I would mention them.

It sounds like you have looked at all the easy things. If still riding take it easy, How many miles has it done, and do you know its history? A full gearbox strip is expensive, time consuming and a pain to do. But a seized gearbox can cost a lot more.

It is probably something simple but will need sorting.

Have you checked the gear selectors.

Hi Christopher

the gearbox has done about 3000 miles on the box which was overhalled... it has no problems other than the nuetral one.

 

as I asked before this can you strip a mk3 gearbox without taken the primary apart ?

as for the selectors that would only happen if I get stuck into taken the inner and out off...was me next job Tongue out

Re: hard to find Neutral

Posted by robert_tuck at September 24. 2017

You can take it all out appart from the mainshaft and sleeve gear and leave the primary side alone. If you have a few ordinary tools it will strip easily. To give you some idea , we arrived on the Isle of Man and prepared to go off on our first ride, 3 blokes and 3 old bikes, Matt went to start the 99 and the kickstart just went down with a horrid noise.Phil put petrol in the Atlas but it peed out.Instant decision,box strip, wedge bike over to left to reduce oil loss,put tin foil tray under,remove clutch cable and kickstart and cover screws drop footrest clear ,pull off outer cover,undo clutch lever housing and take off KS spring ,undo mainshaft nut and inner cover nuts ,pull off inner cover,check kickstart pawl and find it upside down,how did it work for months like that,remove selector rod and layshaft and most of mainshaft gears just for a looksee , stuff it all back in ,tip oil back in appart from that lost to the grass, move onto other 2 bikes drain tank,eat breakfast, rebuild petrol tap plungers,strip Dellorto racing carb ,wonky rearsets etc. set off to get a ride in before lunch.Wonder if bits of grass detrimental to box,then remember oil was always green in the old days anyway,Don't ask why all this is needed.The boys did enough of that.And taking the "P".As we had 10 days of riding and a dozen laps of Jurby track I think I did OK, not that they would admit that!.

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