Oil in sump/forks

850 Mk2A - The manual states that when changing engine oil there will be a small amount left in the sump.  So, roughly how much is a small amount?  Also, how much oil would there be left if the bike was wet sumping and you drained it from a cold engine after, say, a month without use?  With regard to the forks, is it normal for the forks to clunk when putting the bike on its centre stand?

Previously wrote:

850 Mk2A - The manual states that when changing engine oil there will be a small amount left in the sump.  So, roughly how much is a small amount?  Also, how much oil would there be left if the bike was wet sumping and you drained it from a cold engine after, say, a month without use?  With regard to the forks, is it normal for the forks to clunk when putting the bike on its centre stand?

 Hello There Whats All this nonses about wet smuping , If you leve your bike layed up for some time you bound to get some oil in the sump up to a pint or more, It does not mean your engine is wet sumping! The Only time you have worrie about this is when all the oil is in the bottom of the sump , The Norton engines are ONLY DRY SUMP! When The Engine is RUNNING , Not when its layed idle,In your Shed or workshop or Garage , And DO NOT FIT TAPS Or Ant-wet Sumping valves Like They Sell on EBAY ? This Only Masks the real problem Witch will Be A Worn  OIL PUMP,    Witch is Cheaper too fix than a Blown up engine ???  all this wet sumping malarky, As all come from The So Called Professoinal Restorers , back in the 60s and 70s ,We did not think about wet sump, we start em' and ride em' ?   Yours   Anna J Dixon

Previously wrote:

850 Mk2A - The manual states that when changing engine oil there will be a small amount left in the sump.  So, roughly how much is a small amount?  Also, how much oil would there be left if the bike was wet sumping and you drained it from a cold engine after, say, a month without use?  With regard to the forks, is it normal for the forks to clunk when putting the bike on its centre stand?

 Hello There Whats All this nonses about wet smuping , If you leve your bike layed up for some time you bound to get some oil in the sump up to a pint or more, It does not mean your engine is wet sumping! The Only time you have worrie about this is when all the oil is in the bottom of the sump , The Norton engines are ONLY DRY SUMP! When The Engine is RUNNING , Not when its layed idle,In your Shed or workshop or Garage , And DO NOT FIT TAPS Or Ant-wet Sumping valves Like They Sell on EBAY ? This Only Masks the real problem Witch will Be A Worn  OIL PUMP,    Witch is Cheaper too fix than a Blown up engine ???  all this wet sumping malarky, As all come from The So Called Professoinal Restorers , back in the 60s and 70s ,We did not think about wet sump, we start em' and ride em' ?   Yours   Anna J Dixon

Hi Ian,

to actually address your questions:

A)    I don't know exactly how much oil remains in the sump after draining & I wonder if they mean the sump trap in the crankshaft? It would hold a few shot glasses I would think? I guess the point is , when filling up, go by the dipstick, not by the volume of oil the engine is suppose to have in it. Obviously you would need to run the engine to circulate the oil, then shut the engine off before checking.

B) wet sumping, this is one of those" Pandora's box" problems. Many different opinions.  Some say that its part of riding an old Norton just empty the sump if you haven't been riding & pour back into the oil tank, some recommend thicker oil, some will work on the oil pump by flattening out the end plate (only part of the problem, some have excessive gaps from the gear points to the valleys), several company's offer Norton oil pump upgrades, some install manual shut off valves on the oil lines (very risky),( Jay Leno has a valve with an alarm on his JPN commando), Colorado Norton works sells an excellent one way valve that they have sold hundreds of with not a single issue ( they have a number of better than stock products for commando's, see their website  http://coloradonortonworks.com/catalog/engine.asp . I will leave my opinion out of this one, since none of my Norton's wet sump anymore ! I am glad we don't dump oil all over the place anymore with all out cars, trucks, and bikes. I don't want my children to live in a pool of old dirty oil, we are smarter than that now days & are trying to not destroy the planet (ok, that is my opinion!)

C) I would nay no, its not normal for your forks to clunk, ever. If you are sitting on the bike and push down then pull up on the bars, can you make the same sound?

Please note, question marks used at the end of questions, exclamation points used when exclaiming, dictionary used to help my spelling, and I read this post before posting , and I have actually owned several Commando's.

Skip Brolund

'50 model 7

'57 model 77

'60 Nomad

Previously wrote:

Hi Ian,

to actually address your questions:

A)    I don't know exactly how much oil remains in the sump after draining & I wonder if they mean the sump trap in the crankshaft? It would hold a few shot glasses I would think? I guess the point is , when filling up, go by the dipstick, not by the volume of oil the engine is suppose to have in it. Obviously you would need to run the engine to circulate the oil, then shut the engine off before checking.

B) wet sumping, this is one of those" Pandora's box" problems. Many different opinions.  Some say that its part of riding an old Norton just empty the sump if you haven't been riding & pour back into the oil tank, some recommend thicker oil, some will work on the oil pump by flattening out the end plate (only part of the problem, some have excessive gaps from the gear points to the valleys), several company's offer Norton oil pump upgrades, some install manual shut off valves on the oil lines (very risky),( Jay Leno has a valve with an alarm on his JPN commando), Colorado Norton works sells an excellent one way valve that they have sold hundreds of with not a single issue ( they have a number of better than stock products for commando's, see their website  http://coloradonortonworks.com/catalog/engine.asp . I will leave my opinion out of this one, since none of my Norton's wet sump anymore ! I am glad we don't dump oil all over the place anymore with all out cars, trucks, and bikes. I don't want my children to live in a pool of old dirty oil, we are smarter than that now days & are trying to not destroy the planet (ok, that is my opinion!)

C) I would nay no, its not normal for your forks to clunk, ever. If you are sitting on the bike and push down then pull up on the bars, can you make the same sound?

Please note, question marks used at the end of questions, exclamation points used when exclaiming, dictionary used to help my spelling, and I read this post before posting , and I have actually owned several Commando's.

 Excellent answer Skip and a lot easier to read and understand than the previous one! I agree with your comments about wet sumping and I have owned several Commando's over the years also, but what do we know!

I must admit my present Commando 850 Mk3 does make a sort of clunk when I put it onto the center stand if the front wheel comes off the ground. However it does not do it when I sit on the bike and pull up or push down on the bars, it is something I am going to investigate over the next couple of weeks.

Cheers, John Mc

Skip Brolund

'50 model 7

'57 model 77

'60 Nomad

 

John previously wrote:

Snip

I must admit my present Commando 850 Mk3 does make a sort of clunk when I put it onto the center stand if the front wheel comes off the ground.

Unmodified Norton forks including those fitted to some Commandos will clunk if they top out. It's a design feature. There is plenty about the cause and remedies that can be found by a quick google.

Cheers

Alan

Basically Anna is right, the term "wet sumping" is probably not the correct technical term. A dry sump lubrucation system does not suddenly convert to a wet sump system, just by being left idle. However, the crux of the matter is that when not ridden regularly, oil will slowly seep through the pump and end up in the sump. And this is where Anna is right again. Back in the days when these bike were used if not daily, then certainly not left idle for weeks or month, oil didn't have time to build up in the sump before the next ride. So technically the problem was there, but regular use of the bike didn't allow it to become a problem.

So we're left to choose the solution which suits us best, either based on personal or technical preferences. I have seen manual shut off valves with ignition cutout switches, but again these can fail. So can the ball/spring/suction type, which you have no way of knowing if they work or not. I guess the best and probably safest way is to ride your bike, which is the solution I have chosen, and it gives me the perfect excuse for getting out. I'll tell my wife, you know I have to go for a ride, to keep the bike in good order!!! A win/win if there ever was one. If this fails, due to illness, earthquake or riots, I empty the sump before starting up.

Previously wrote:

Basically Anna is right, the term "wet sumping" is probably not the correct technical term. A dry sump lubrucation system does not suddenly convert to a wet sump system, just by being left idle. However, the crux of the matter is that when not ridden regularly, oil will slowly seep through the pump and end up in the sump. And this is where Anna is right again. Back in the days when these bike were used if not daily, then certainly not left idle for weeks or month, oil didn't have time to build up in the sump before the next ride. So technically the problem was there, but regular use of the bike didn't allow it to become a problem.

So we're left to choose the solution which suits us best, either based on personal or technical preferences. I have seen manual shut off valves with ignition cutout switches, but again these can fail. So can the ball/spring/suction type, which you have no way of knowing if they work or not. I guess the best and probably safest way is to ride your bike, which is the solution I have chosen, and it gives me the perfect excuse for getting out. I'll tell my wife, you know I have to go for a ride, to keep the bike in good order!!! A win/win if there ever was one. If this fails, due to illness, earthquake or riots, I empty the sump before starting up.

Hi Tom, yes I agree however we all know what is meant by the term "wet sumping" even though it is not technically correct it is what we all use to describe the problem. We also know how this can be avoided which the person who asked the question was also aware of as he asked how much oil to expect. However that amount will vary from bike to bike but in a month normally it won't be much or enough to cause any problems. I had a BSA Gold Star a couple of years back which if left for more than a few weeks without use was almost impossible to start unless the oil in the sump was drained off!  I also do the same as you and tell my wife that I have to take the bike out regular to keep it in good order but I do try to avoid using them when there is salt on the roads. When I first started riding and the motorcycle was my only for of transport it was used every day so this problem didn't happen. Now I have a few bikes it makes it harder to use them on a regular basis over Winter but it is never a problem in the summer.

Previously wrote:

Basically Anna is right, the term "wet sumping" is probably not the correct technical term. A dry sump lubrucation system does not suddenly convert to a wet sump system, just by being left idle. However, the crux of the matter is that when not ridden regularly, oil will slowly seep through the pump and end up in the sump. And this is where Anna is right again. Back in the days when these bike were used if not daily, then certainly not left idle for weeks or month, oil didn't have time to build up in the sump before the next ride. So technically the problem was there, but regular use of the bike didn't allow it to become a problem.

So we're left to choose the solution which suits us best, either based on personal or technical preferences. I have seen manual shut off valves with ignition cutout switches, but again these can fail. So can the ball/spring/suction type, which you have no way of knowing if they work or not. I guess the best and probably safest way is to ride your bike, which is the solution I have chosen, and it gives me the perfect excuse for getting out. I'll tell my wife, you know I have to go for a ride, to keep the bike in good order!!! A win/win if there ever was one. If this fails, due to illness, earthquake or riots, I empty the sump before starting up.

Hello tom yes a nice one there! and if I was your wife I would get on my bike too , and go with you , But now to the The wet sumping bit  Do Not drain the oil in the sump before starting ,As all that oil is doing more good than harm , from a first start all that oil is going round the main bearing , and camshaft feed  and followers and get;s up behind the piston shirts lubricates the bores and small ends  ,if the engine was dry then your running your engine dry for the time it take for the oil to get round is about 30 seconds in all , and evey time you start your engine dry your sorting the engines life , But that all up too you? ,I have ridden motorcycles for over 40 years , and my bikes do not drip oil , and I do not use silicon sealer ether. all I use is grease, on the gaskets ,and sometimes   Stag jointing compound ,   this is what marine engineers use  , one more tip there is a new spark plugs out by Bosch  W7DTC   its the same heat range  as Champion N5  but better As it as 3 electrods this does not mean you get 3 sparks at onces. it finds the least resistance and give a cleaner exhaust and more smiles to the gallon ,and easy starting   yours anna j

Previously wrote:

850 Mk2A - The manual states that when changing engine oil there will be a small amount left in the sump.  So, roughly how much is a small amount?  Also, how much oil would there be left if the bike was wet sumping and you drained it from a cold engine after, say, a month without use?  With regard to the forks, is it normal for the forks to clunk when putting the bike on its centre stand?

 

Hi There

             I never drain any oil out of the sump prior to starting, just take it up to a fast idle and what surplus there is in the sump is soon back in the oil tank also, using a fast idle takes the load off all the moving engine parts and I must be doing something right as my crankcases have never been apart since leaving the factory in 1974

Everybody who posted here has some good points, but the original about how much oil in the sump is the clue.  If the draining of oil to the sump is severe, like a quart or so, then draining the sump prior to starting the bike is a good idea, since all this oil will likely find its way out of the breather and all over your garage floor or driveway.  Don't ask how I know this... This will probably only happen if the bike is left standing for a really long time, like from October to April if you live somewhere where it's too cold and icy to ride year round, and just insure it for 6 months.  If you get large amounts of oil in your sump after a week or two, then you need to service your oil pump - instructions are given in the factory manual.

Previously wrote:

Everybody who posted here has some good points, but the original about how much oil in the sump is the clue.  If the draining of oil to the sump is severe, like a quart or so, then draining the sump prior to starting the bike is a good idea, since all this oil will likely find its way out of the breather and all over your garage floor or driveway.  Don't ask how I know this... This will probably only happen if the bike is left standing for a really long time, like from October to April if you live somewhere where it's too cold and icy to ride year round, and just insure it for 6 months.  If you get large amounts of oil in your sump after a week or two, then you need to service your oil pump - instructions are given in the factory manual.

Hello well there a anwer to that fit catch tank, or send it back to the oil tank like my bike as some of it goes on the chain as I have fitted a T pipe in the breather pipe one goes back to the oil other goes to the chain , and my bike as a extra breather on the inlet rocker cover domed nut via a banjo pipe this goes back to the oil tank breather tower yes the manxman has special parts fitted too it not list in any other parts manual but the manxman one ,As it had its own parts manual same as the silencers Made specialy by the Bracebidge street craftsman , and only fitted to the manxman 650 and they do sound nice , I have no  oil leaks

Previously wrote:

Everybody who posted here has some good points, but the original about how much oil in the sump is the clue.  If the draining of oil to the sump is severe, like a quart or so, then draining the sump prior to starting the bike is a good idea, since all this oil will likely find its way out of the breather and all over your garage floor or driveway.  Don't ask how I know this... This will probably only happen if the bike is left standing for a really long time, like from October to April if you live somewhere where it's too cold and icy to ride year round, and just insure it for 6 months.  If you get large amounts of oil in your sump after a week or two, then you need to service your oil pump - instructions are given in the factory manual.

Hello well there a anwer to that fit catch tank, or send it back to the oil tank like my bike as some of it goes on the chain as I have fitted a T pipe in the breather pipe one goes back to the oil other goes to the chain , and my bike as a extra breather on the inlet rocker cover domed nut via a banjo pipe this goes back to the oil tank breather tower yes the manxman has special parts fitted too it not list in any other parts manual but the manxman one ,As it had its own parts manual same as the silencers Made specialy by the Bracebidge street craftsman , and only fitted to the manxman 650 and they do sound nice , I have no  oil leaks

Hi Ian,  am I right in thinking your Commando is a fairly recently acquired?

You have received quite a lot of feedback, mostly sound, some irrelevant.  If you are doing your first oil change, it doesn't really matter how much oil there is in the sump (although, if the engine has been warmed up first, it should not be a lot).  Drain the oil tank, and sump, then fill with the amount of clean oil specified in your handbook (allowing a bit more if the engine has been fitted with an external cartridge filter. If so, fit a new cartridge).     On this point, I disagree with Skip.   As been mentioned, on other threads, some Commandos were dispatched with the wrong dipsticks!

Since you now have the correct amount of oil in the system, run the engine for a few minutes, to warm it up, then check the dipstick level.  If the level shown is +/- about 1/4" from the "Full" mark, then the dipstick is wrongly marked (or not the correct one for your engine).    Over fill, and the rear of the bike, chain, and tyre will be very well lubricated!    Never check the oil level on a cold engine, providing it has not been left standing for months on end, any oil in the sump will soon return to the tank.  "Wet sumping" was unheard of in the days when bikes were used as everyday transport.  I hope I am not trying to teach you to suck eggs!    

Regards,  John. 

Hi John,

was there a particular period of time the "bad" dip sitcks were used? 

Skip

Previously wrote:

Hi John,

was there a particular period of time the "bad" dip sitcks were used? 

Skip

Hi Skip, can't remember exactly when, but, there was a fairly recent post about this.   Also, I made a mistake.  I should have said If the oil level is MORE than +/- 1/4" than the full mark, the dipstick is incorrect"

John.

It always seems illogical to change the oil in the bike and leave the proverbial tea cup-full in the crankshaft (that's roughly how much it is).

My practice when changing oil is to slightly overfill the Commando and then start it prior to fitting the new oil filter (with a tray underneath). It's quite easy to see when the spurting oil changes from dirty to clean.

Obviously, an eye has to be kept on the tank level but the advantage is that the tank doesn't immediately become contaminated with old oil.

Previously wrote:

Hi Ian,  am I right in thinking your Commando is a fairly recently acquired?

You have received quite a lot of feedback, mostly sound, some irrelevant.  If you are doing your first oil change, it doesn't really matter how much oil there is in the sump (although, if the engine has been warmed up first, it should not be a lot).  Drain the oil tank, and sump, then fill with the amount of clean oil specified in your handbook (allowing a bit more if the engine has been fitted with an external cartridge filter. If so, fit a new cartridge).     On this point, I disagree with Skip.   As been mentioned, on other threads, some Commandos were dispatched with the wrong dipsticks!

Since you now have the correct amount of oil in the system, run the engine for a few minutes, to warm it up, then check the dipstick level.  If the level shown is +/- about 1/4" from the "Full" mark, then the dipstick is wrongly marked (or not the correct one for your engine).    Over fill, and the rear of the bike, chain, and tyre will be very well lubricated!    Never check the oil level on a cold engine, providing it has not been left standing for months on end, any oil in the sump will soon return to the tank.  "Wet sumping" was unheard of in the days when bikes were used as everyday transport.  I hope I am not trying to teach you to suck eggs!    

Regards,  John. 

Hi John,

Many thanks for your comments, they were most useful and much appreciated.  Yes, you are correct in thinking my Commando is a recent acquisition.

I have been working on it over the winter and whilst draining the engine oil I read in the manual that it says "a small amount of oil is left in the sump".  I was therefore trying to establish whether what was left in my sump was the normal amount that you would find in any Commando sump or not.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the words "wet sumping" as it seems to have caused some unrest in the camp. Apologies to those that took offence.

Any comments on the clunking forks?

Regards, Ian

Previously wrote:

It always seems illogical to change the oil in the bike and leave the proverbial tea cup-full in the crankshaft (that's roughly how much it is).

My practice when changing oil is to slightly overfill the Commando and then start it prior to fitting the new oil filter (with a tray underneath). It's quite easy to see when the spurting oil changes from dirty to clean.

Obviously, an eye has to be kept on the tank level but the advantage is that the tank doesn't immediately become contaminated with old oil.

 

 

At last ... somebody's actually answered one of my questions!  Thank you very much indeed Richard for your comments.

Any comments re. the forks clunking?

Regards, Ian 

Ian, as far as the forks are concerned, I think that they usually will clunk to some extent on full extension, dependent on the oil viscosity and any wear to the damper top caps where the damper rods pass through.

I've rebuilt forks with standard parts on several occasions and even with everything new, there can be a clunk if the bike is pulled back too enthusiastically onto the main stand.  They can also clunk if the front wheel comes up and they drop onto full extension.

As has been mentioned, there has been plenty written about the situation and the cures but what it comes down to is that the designed-in hydraulic stops are questionable on Commando forks as a consequence of various changes to the original 'Roadholder' forks and there can easily be metal to metal contact when fully extended. What you're hearing is the damper valve coming up under the cap on the damper tube.

It doesn't mean that catastrophic failure is imminent.

Ian previously wrote:

At last ... somebody's actually answered one of my questions!  Thank you very much indeed Richard for your comments.

Any comments re. the forks clunking?

I answered the question about the forks on Monday? Yes, they clunk!

Cheers

Alan

Ian, you may consider the advice given in the "NOC Commando technical notes" to use 160cc of fork oil rather than the manuals 150cc. this could ensure that your damper tubes have a good covering of oil when at full extension.  Re. the oil left in the crankcases. If you have run your engine to get it hot for the oil change, what is left in the crankcases is IMHO negligable. Unless you need to remove the strainer in the drain plug for cleaning (if you have one) don't bother.  What is held inside the crank itself is also not woth worrying about. If your Commando is as shagged out as mine, don't worry about draining any out, just keep topping it up, oil burn rate and leakage take care of the rest. Seemples!!