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Noisy in low gears

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Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by david_evans at July 12. 2017

Deep groove ball bearing as recommended by Mick Hemmings is FAG 6203TB with a phenolic cage.  The roller is NJ203E

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 12. 2017

Yes, I get a feeling I might've trashed that bearing for nothing ... But I wanted to leave no stone unturned. I'd read about the need to check the layshaft for shimming when using a roller, but interestingly no shims came out. Thanks for the info on Mr Hemmings' recommendation! I'll probably go that way ...

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by christopher_winsby at July 12. 2017

Well done on getting it out.

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 12. 2017

Previously christopher_winsby wrote:

Well done on getting it out.

Thank you! It took a lot of heat, and a fair bit of slidehammering! No way was that thing going to pop out by itself, unfortunately. You never know when an angle grinder, a couple of thread-cutting taps and a battered old length of bar that I've probably had since the 1970s might come in handy! Now on to cleaning and inspecting the innards. Thanks all for the support so far!

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 13. 2017

Here's a question – should the kickstart bush (part no. 04.0473) be free to rotate in the gearbox inner cover, even closely? Mine does with negligible slop, but curiously it won't slide out, it would take at least a small amount of bashing to remove it. The inner diameter shows use but original machining marks (I think) predominate. What to do?

And another question – my clutch pushrod has been fitted with an O-ring, as discussed elsewhere on the site, where an O-ring of '1mm section x 3mm ID' is mentioned. Anyone know if there's a regular Andover O-ring I can use as a replacement? The one on the carb idle screw looks close ...

Cheers!

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by david_evans at July 13. 2017

I modified my push rod by cutting it in half, machining the rough ends and fitting a ball bearing between the two halves. More recently I have fitted an o ring on the outer ends of both parts. the clutch action is now very notchy so maybe me trying to be a smartarse has backfiredCry

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 13. 2017

Previously david_evans wrote:

I modified my push rod by cutting it in half, machining the rough ends and fitting a ball bearing between the two halves. More recently I have fitted an o ring on the outer ends of both parts. the clutch action is now very notchy so maybe me trying to be a smartarse has backfiredCry

D'oh! I'm pretty sure Norman White put the O-ring on the pushrod for me, then for good measure I stuck David Comeau's seal on the end of the mainshaft – oil still gets through, albeit much more slowly, so I wouldn't blame you for trying!

About this ...

While I'm here I have another question (which makes three that I'm hanging on, just so we know!) – there was one gearbox inner cover nut that my ¼ WW socket wouldn't fit, as it couldn't get between the nut and the side of the cover, any recommendations? I forced it off with a ¼ WW spanner and some abuse, wouldn't want to do that again ...

I just spoke to Angela and Mick Hemmings, their solution is just to grind the socket down! I'd hoped they might have a tool to sell me, but I didn't realise they don't have a shop any more ... I've done that for something before, but it does make me wonder what Norton thought we'd do. Anyway you can ignore that one now! Cheers.

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 17. 2017

Any thoughts on whether the gearbox inner cover kickstart bush (part no. 04.0473) should be free to rotate in the cover, even closely? Mine does with negligible slop, but curiously it won't slide out, it would take at least a small amount of bashing to remove it. The inner diameter shows use but original machining marks (I think) predominate. What to do? TIA

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by christopher_winsby at July 17. 2017

Previously Colin Peterson wrote:

Previously david_evans wrote:

I modified my push rod by cutting it in half, machining the rough ends and fitting a ball bearing between the two halves. More recently I have fitted an o ring on the outer ends of both parts. the clutch action is now very notchy so maybe me trying to be a smartarse has backfiredCry

D'oh! I'm pretty sure Norman White put the O-ring on the pushrod for me, then for good measure I stuck David Comeau's seal on the end of the mainshaft – oil still gets through, albeit much more slowly, so I wouldn't blame you for trying!

About this ...

While I'm here I have another question (which makes three that I'm hanging on, just so we know!) – there was one gearbox inner cover nut that my ¼ WW socket wouldn't fit, as it couldn't get between the nut and the side of the cover, any recommendations? I forced it off with a ¼ WW spanner and some abuse, wouldn't want to do that again ...

I just spoke to Angela and Mick Hemmings, their solution is just to grind the socket down! I'd hoped they might have a tool to sell me, but I didn't realise they don't have a shop any more ... I've done that for something before, but it does make me wonder what Norton thought we'd do. Anyway you can ignore that one now! Cheers.

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by christopher_winsby at July 17. 2017

Good quality thin wall sockets.

Most cheap socket sets are thicker walled due to quality of the material.

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 17. 2017

Thanks for that, Christopher – this gearbox business is already costing me a bloomin' fortune so I think I'll grind the socket I have! Still wondering about that kickstart bush ...

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by christopher_winsby at July 17. 2017

Previously Colin Peterson wrote:

Thanks for that, Christopher – this gearbox business is already costing me a bloomin' fortune so I think I'll grind the socket I have! Still wondering about that kickstart bush ...

I had a look at one I have and it does not move. Having cleaned the one I have in the bike I put a drop of penetrating LocTite on the joint and left it over night.

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by christopher_winsby at July 17. 2017
Previously Colin Peterson wrote:

Thanks for that, Christopher – this gearbox business is already costing me a bloomin' fortune so I think I'll grind the socket I have! Still wondering about that kickstart bush ...

Costs can run away that is for sure.

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 17. 2017

Previously christopher_winsby wrote:

Previously Colin Peterson wrote:

Thanks for that, Christopher – this gearbox business is already costing me a bloomin' fortune so I think I'll grind the socket I have! Still wondering about that kickstart bush ...

I had a look at one I have and it does not move. Having cleaned the one I have in the bike I put a drop of penetrating LocTite on the joint and left it over night.

Thanks for that about the bush too, I only just noticed it – this message board does seem to misfire occasionally, I'd much rather have email notifications of messages, as we did many years ago. I wouldn't have missed it then. I also think the present format contributes to the 'compartmentalising' of interest in particular models and activities – when we had an email bulletin board I'd see every message on every subject, and one always had the option to delete, or receive a digest instead IIRC.

Anyway, about your LocTite tip, I've been thinking along much the same lines – I have some suitable LocTite and shall use that. Cheers!

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by robert_tuck at July 17. 2017

Hemmings used to fit reduced hexagon nuts to the inner cover, these can be obtained from various suppliers.

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 17. 2017

Excellent tip Robert, thank you! Only, I just did a search online and didn't find any reduced hexagon nuts, might you recommend a supplier? Cheers.

Typical – as soon as I posted that, I found a supplier – I might as well share: http://www.stainlessautomotivefastenings.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=342_94_97&zenid=b5b4bb6d6e81338190d7522e2a0527fb

Thanks again!

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 28. 2017

Here's an update, and a minor ponder, for anyone who's interested. The weather has played merry hell with progress, as has the list of parts for the MKIIA on the Only Genuine Source's online shop – which has been partly updated since, so I can only imagine it's because I had to return a part that was wrong and re-order.

Anyway ... Only yesterday did I get the gearbox buttoned up, and the primary awaits another spell of dry weather. But ... Wiggling the back wheel to try the gears, it's very hit-and-miss: sometimes the gear pedal catches, often it doesn't. My own, recent experience is that this can be down to the clearance between the gearchange ratchet spring (04.0038) and the gear selector pawl (04.0024) being not quite right, and of course, while the gearbox was apart, I changed all the springs ... Yes, the spring is the right way up.

The factory manual says there should be 'a minimum but perceptible clearance, between the two legs of the spring and the pawl'. I thought I had exactly that, but before the weather clears enough for me to take the outer cover off again, I thought I'd ask for any wisdom on what 'a minimum but perceptible clearance' means in practice. I might just put the old spring back in and see, but if anyone has any ideas I'd be very grateful. TIA

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by christopher_winsby at July 28. 2017

Have a look at Old Brits Norton, Technical Articles,  gearbox assemble. They have pictures good pictures and explanations.

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 28. 2017

Thanks Christopher, hmm, Old Britts' picture of 'correct spring fitment' looks exactly as I have mine, as far as it goes – it doesn't actually show the clearance. Never mind, if it weren't raining I expect I'd be finding an answer for myself, but I'll keep hunting for any more precise info, cheers!

Oh, and there's the thread 'AMC gearbox problems' under Heavy Twins, that goes into the same issue. If it'd just stop raining ....!

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by robert_tuck at July 28. 2017

After a re-shim my box is sticking in third, I think we are in the same boat!.

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 28. 2017

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

After a re-shim my box is sticking in third, I think we are in the same boat!.

You have my sympathy! It's not as though I mind riding in the rain – I just need a chance to fix my box first! Grrr ...!

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 31. 2017

Finally! After two straight days of dry weather, the Beast lives again! At a standstill, I have to work slightly harder to find first from neutral than I did before, but otherwise all seems well, and the transmission is almost unheard – I'd say that's a result!

I gave up on the new gearchange ratchet spring after a few attempts at bending it into shape and just stuck the old one back in, I was only replacing it out of caution and it works fine. The only other thing, endfloat on the layshaft, with the roller layshaft bearing fitted, is virtually non-existent, and no shims are fitted. I ended up pushing the inner race onto the layshaft until the shaft was proud by a few thou – machining on the inner face of the box suggested this would be ok, but obviously I didn't want to go too far. The old inner race was, as I recall, flush with the end of the layshaft.

I believe any endfloat is expected to close up as the box warms up? My first ride was only 5 miles or so to satisfy myself that everything worked and the noise had gone, then I went 20 or so more just to enjoy it, including a few miles on a fast dual carriageway. No complaints from the gearbox. I think I'll give it an early oil change, and expect to see specks of metal as I drain it, but my obvious hope is that it'll just settle down. Unless anyone knows better?

Anyway, thanks again for all the help and comments. After three weeks of all sorts of ups and downs, fingers crossed that I don't have to go into the box again for many more miles.

One last off-topic thing, I fitted a pair of Viking factory-facsimile peashooters today that had been off for re-chroming – a long story – but my god they sound fantastic compared to the ones of dubious origin that were on the bike when I got it all those years ago. A different, fruitier tone and much more lively sounding, but I don't think they're much louder if any. And they're beautiful. Lucky me! Laughing

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by andrew_windsor at July 31. 2017

Hi ,

I bought a 850 Mk 111 a couple of years ago and i struggled finding neutral, but the more i used the bike the  easier it got and now its silky smooth.

Mind you the bike had been stood for many years, looked after, but not run .

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 31. 2017

Previously andrew_windsor wrote:

Hi ,

I bought a 850 Mk 111 a couple of years ago and i struggled finding neutral, but the more i used the bike the  easier it got and now its silky smooth.

Mind you the bike had been stood for many years, looked after, but not run .

Thanks for the tip Andrew, here's hoping for silky smooth! Cheers.

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Katherine Scott at July 31. 2017

Previously Colin Peterson wrote:

 

I think I'll give it an early oil change, and expect to see specks of metal as I drain it, but my obvious hope is that it'll just settle down. Unless anyone knows better?

 

I fitted one of AN's  magnetic drain bolts to my MK3 gives a clear indication of any impending problems.

Regards

Katherine

 

Re: Noisy in low gears

Posted by Colin Peterson at July 31. 2017

Thanks for reminding me Katherine, I just fitted one of those! But I'd forgotten already ... Do they do genuine factory brains?! I could do with one of those too ... Wink

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