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Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

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Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 08. 2017

Hello there,

Ebay really is an interesting place to find unusual models.  It seems to be getting worse

There's a 'Navigator' for sale but it seems to be a VERY special one-off;

It's a Jubilee frame and back wheel, a Navigator engine, and Long Roadholder front forks and possibly an early Dominator front wheel plus sundry unknown bits.  No documents.

Apparently the previous owner bought it thinking it was a Commando.

 

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by Dan Field at February 08. 2017

Hi Patrick, this one? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Norton-Navigator-350-/112290616586?hash=item1a250ad50a:g:eOQAAOSwA3dYkk5g  I don't think they are road holders, look at the sliders?!

There was a good navi project at the Bristol show, all there and running for £1,900 I was tempted!

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by crawford_logan at February 08. 2017

OH Dear!!!

This is a real bitsa. I am right in the middle of a major rebuild of a Navigator and I can tell you that it will take a lot of money to make that reasonable - and it will be more than it ends up being worth.

The forks are not Roadholders and they look BSA to me as does the front brake.

There will also be endless problems getting it registered.

I suggest it is good for spares only as there will be much easier restoration projects out there than this.

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by anna jeannette Dixon at February 08. 2017

hello yes a real lemon one for the brave or foolish depending on how you look at it !       you can throw money at it  and end up with a mixed bag, I alway say do your research  before spending your money  and make should you know what you're buying  some of the crap  seen on eBay is only fit for scrap .! like a old rusty rocker box   with the ad saying real genuine Norton part, but the rusty part of a P&M panther   and nothing to do with a Norton   yours  anna j  

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by Ulrich Hoffmann at February 09. 2017

If you do not like the bitsa, go for this one, even better!

https://www.classic-trader.com/de/motorrad/inserat/norton/navigator/1961/67378

Smile

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by Fritz Wettstein at February 09. 2017

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

https://www.classic-trader.com/de/motorrad/inserat/norton/navigator/1961/67378

Smile

@Ulrich,

This is an ES2 or, if realy 350ccm, a M50. Not bad, but the rear wheel and the rear mudguard and the price?

Fritz

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 09. 2017

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

If you do not like the bitsa, go for this one, even better!

https://www.classic-trader.com/de/motorrad/inserat/norton/navigator/1961/67378

Smile

Not a bad looker at all.  Do you think the TUV Inspektor will spot that there is a zylinder missing ?

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 09. 2017

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

 

The forks are not Roadholders and they look BSA to me as does the front brake.

There will also be endless problems getting it registered.

I suggest it is good for spares only as there will be much easier restoration projects out there than this.

 

You are correct. The forks do look BSA - they might actually turn out to be early Gold Star bits, if someone was really lucky !  The engine is probably the only item of real interest.  Navigator engines in one piece with complete gearboxes are getting hard to find, but who knows what is inside.

The MOT inspector here was not completely happy a few days ago with our 1958 Morris Isis because it did not have  a 'sticker'stating the % the headlights should dip !.  MOT inspectors here are Government employees and he was a young fellow with no real idea of old vehicles; what he would make of a bitsa is anyone's guess.

 

 

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by Ian Easton at February 10. 2017

I just checked the link and it sold for 640 pounds.

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by Dan Field at February 10. 2017

Prob worth that for spares depending on whether everything is in the engine!

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 16. 2017

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 16. 2017

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Hello  All,

It did indeed sell for £640--I bought it.  I have little knowledge of Nortons but did wonder about the front end,  I have a unit single BSA but that has a Honda front end.   I had to chuckle when I had a good look at it--I have a Rickman street Metisse with metal profile forks and a Laverda TLS from brake and a 750 Triumph oil in frame bike with Suzuki forks and the TLS front brake from a Bridgestone (175 I think--same brake as the 350 but an 18 inch wheel--it really works).  It was somehow fitting to find it was--ermm different.  A 'real lemon'--no I don't think so.  I plan electronic ignition and bigger brighter lights--my only transport is old bikes and I ride all year round.

Dan, I think it was you,  I saw something on another post regarding the front member and head steady being different on a Jubilee?  I don't appear to have a head steady at all.  Any advice gratefully accepted.   Cheers  JPA

PS the engine turns over smoothly, has compression, no fins missing and the screws holding the timing side on look as if them have never been touched.  There is some gasket cement on the primary cover and hylomar on the carb manifold.

The front end is--as far as I can tell from a Goldstar--as long as it has 'knock outs' in the hub  and a 'loose cam bearing' (sic).

https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/a65anda50/category/917-5-8-inch-front-half-width-alloy-brake-plate

It is an 8 inch brake.

The game is afoot!

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 16. 2017

Hello John,

Welcome to the NOC.  You certainly have a bitsa there but you sound well used to non-standard machines.  First thing you need to decide is what you intend to do with it - the Club dating officer might be able to give you some useful advice as to obtaining a registration. It is very difficult to obtain registration for a non-standard machine.  The Jubilee was a 250cc and the Navigator was a 350cc but there are loads of other differences such as the Jubilee had Francis Barnett style forks with an 18" front wheel and the Navigator had proper Roadholders with a 19" Dominator wheel.

The front downtube is different between Jubilee and Navigator and both are interchangeable (with a little effort) with Francis Barnett downtubes.  NOC spares might be able to produce a front down tube (either Jubilee or Navigator)  to match what you intend to do.  Otherwise just make and weld on your head steady if it is to remain a special.

Goldstar front forks and wheel is a good item to have and you might be able to do a trade for some Norton Roadholders.

Good Luck

Patrick

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by john_day at February 16. 2017

good luck.

hope you've got deep pockets!

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by Barry Carson at February 16. 2017

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 16. 2017

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hello John,

Welcome to the NOC.  You certainly have a bitsa there but you sound well used to non-standard machines.  First thing you need to decide is what you intend to do with it - the Club dating officer might be able to give you some useful advice as to obtaining a registration. It is very difficult to obtain registration for a non-standard machine.  The Jubilee was a 250cc and the Navigator was a 350cc but there are loads of other differences such as the Jubilee had Francis Barnett style forks with an 18" front wheel and the Navigator had proper Roadholders with a 19" Dominator wheel.

The front downtube is different between Jubilee and Navigator and both are interchangeable (with a little effort) with Francis Barnett downtubes.  NOC spares might be able to produce a front down tube (either Jubilee or Navigator)  to match what you intend to do.  Otherwise just make and weld on your head steady if it is to remain a special.

Goldstar front forks and wheel is a good item to have and you might be able to do a trade for some Norton Roadholders.

Good Luck

Patrick

 

Hello Patrick and thanks,

I have a Jordanian Army B40 in a C25 frame with a front end made up of two different Honda 250's--TLS brake--works a treat.  The only dear thing was getting the wheel rebuilt.   Does the Navigator down tube has a welded on bracket  for the head steady?  Mine has no head steady and no provision for anything to bolt to the 'tube' (more like a girder really).    I'll put up some pictures of the yokes---the lockstops work fine--possibly a coincidence but I don't know yet.

 

It has every chance of remaining a practical class--I'm off to pick up a Boyer kit and a seat cover today.

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by howard_thompson at February 16. 2017

Greetings John, and welcome to the world of Norton. Your profile details and, indeed, the new project just embarked on, suggest a very positive attitude towards the odd and often frustrating world of old motorbikes that some of the more lily-livered, fair-weather dabblers amongst us (myself included, embarrassingly enough) could take encouragement from. I look forward to reading further bulletins of all and any progress made.

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 16. 2017

Previously howard_thompson wrote:

Greetings John, and welcome to the world of Norton. Your profile details and, indeed, the new project just embarked on, suggest a very positive attitude towards the odd and often frustrating world of old motorbikes that some of the more lily-livered, fair-weather dabblers amongst us (myself included, embarrassingly enough) could take encouragement from. I look forward to reading further bulletins of all and any progress made.


Hello Howard--I did have a non success today.  After vainly looking for a kick start  (I have found places that do new ones for Villiers-I'm told they are the same)--I bought a 16mm (4 thou bigger but taking a chance with the splines) kickstart for a 'pit bike'.  It cost £8 brand new but--I then realized that pit bike means tint monkey bike.    It looks well made but--I was left looking at it like Spinal Tap and their model of Stonehenge.  I did pick up a seat cover from Argos  (the company I bought it from is a guy I went to university with in the 1990s) but--as my writing is so bad--to the amusement of the women in Argos--I could not decipher the code for the Boyer kit--luckily its on my way home from work.    

 

My  seat has two rubber mounts to accept the prongs that protrude from the frame--or would do if there were any--are they removable?  Someone  does seem to have welded a braked on nearby.  There are two odd thin plates on the seat base were I would usually expect to find a bracket.   Apparently--on the standard models  there was some kind of clips and bolts to clip too--I'll put a photo up when I get home.

                                                                                                    

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 16. 2017

Hi John,

FRONT DOWNTUBE;  The head steady mount on Navigator and Jubilee is welded on to the downtube.  As the Navigator engine is 1/2" taller than the Jubilee someone has cut the mounting off the Jubilee downtube but hasn't got round to welding on a new mount in the correct place.  I can see a metal bar attached to the front of the engine approx where the head steady mounts.

There is one other important difference between the Navigator and Jubilee front downtubes;  there is a difference in the head steering geometry -.  So if you keep a BSA front end you will have to do your own calculations for steering geometry.  In it's day the Navigator was regarded as a capable performer with good handling.

SEAT.  Yes there should be two prongs welded to the frame rails which locate in matching mounts on the front of the seat base.  What rear mounting is on the seat?  There should be two legs welded to the seat ; these locate on the suspension top bolts. This info is for the Standard model - the Deluxe model is different. Are you sure the seat is actually from a Lightweight Norton.?

Patrick

 

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by crawford_logan at February 16. 2017

John,

A pic is worth a thousand words.

This is a photo of the underside of a Jubilee / Navigator seat for a standard model. The deluxe with all the tinware is different.

Hope this helps,

Crawford

PS will take photo tomorrow of my downtube to show what the head steady bracket should look like.

Attachments

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 16. 2017

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hi John,

FRONT DOWNTUBE;  The head steady mount on Navigator and Jubilee is welded on to the downtube.  As the Navigator engine is 1/2" taller than the Jubilee someone has cut the mounting off the Jubilee downtube but hasn't got round to welding on a new mount in the correct place.  I can see a metal bar attached to the front of the engine approx where the head steady mounts.

There is one other important difference between the Navigator and Jubilee front downtubes;  there is a difference in the head steering geometry -.  So if you keep a BSA front end you will have to do your own calculations for steering geometry.  In it's day the Navigator was regarded as a capable performer with good handling.

SEAT.  Yes there should be two prongs welded to the frame rails which locate in matching mounts on the front of the seat base.  What rear mounting is on the seat?  There should be two legs welded to the seat ; these locate on the suspension top bolts. This info is for the Standard model - the Deluxe model is different. Are you sure the seat is actually from a Lightweight Norton.?

Patrick

 

Hello Patrick

I shall just have to experiment with the forks--they need new stanchions in any case.  The front wheel is not a Gold Star one  (it has now holes or partially pressed holes to knock out.  That said it is the same brake--fitted to B33 and some 650 twins.  Here is a picture of the seat base  (I hope it is a Norton Navigator one I've bought a cover)'  I'll send another of the rear arrangements

Attachments

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by Dan Field at February 16. 2017

Hi John, that appears to be a pic of the bike rather than the seat. I see Patrick has replied to your question about the down tube.

dan

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 16. 2017

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John,

A pic is worth a thousand words.

This is a photo of the underside of a Jubilee / Navigator seat for a standard model. The deluxe with all the tinware is different.

Hope this helps,

Crawford

PS will take photo tomorrow of my downtube to show what the head steady bracket should look like.

Hello Crawford

Thank you.  There does not seem to be a Norton lightweights Haynes manual--I did see one that optimistically tries to cover all twins but it has little room for seats etc.  Here's a (bad) picture of the seat base--sockets at the front

Attachments

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 16. 2017

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John,

A pic is worth a thousand words.

This is a photo of the underside of a Jubilee / Navigator seat for a standard model. The deluxe with all the tinware is different.

Hope this helps,

Crawford

PS will take photo tomorrow of my downtube to show what the head steady bracket should look

Hello Crawford

Thank you.  There does not seem to be a Norton lightweights Haynes manual--I did see one that optimistically tries to cover all twins but it has little room for seats etc.  Here's a (bad) picture of the seat base--sockets at the front

 

Here is the rear with the two pieces of--nearly thin enough to be shim steel.  In the spares list this is a mention of seat clips and a bolt they engage with.  Some one has obvious cut the front prongs off--I'll replace them.

Attachments

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 16. 2017

Hello everyone who kindly replied

 

Here is the 'head steady arrangements on my bike--no bracket on the down tube.  I presumed the plate near the exhausts ports something to do with the down tubes.  I got a new set with the bike does anything hold them on at the front?

Attachments

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 17. 2017

Hi John,

At least the seat base you have is the correct seat base for a Standard lightweight.  The photo Crawford posted is actually the seat on my Standard Navigator so I can guarantee it fits correctly.  Weld on some legs to your seat before attaching the new seat cover. - the legs attach to the bolts which hold the rear suspension units to the frame.  You do not need any Terry clips or special bolts as these only apply to the De Luxe seat.

Your picture quite clearly shows that the prongs which make the front mount for the seat are missing. Someone has cut them off the frame rails for unknown reasons; so again it's back to the welder to attach some new front mounts.  They are simply prongs which engage in the two rubber blocks on the seat.

The exhaust front pipes are simply push in to the heads- no clips.  I don't know what the odd bracket shown in your picture is meant to be. It has nothing to do with the exhaust pipes.  The two studs where it is attached to the head are the mounting studs for the head steady bracket.Crawford said he was getting you a picture of the head steady mounting

You won't be short of things to do for a while.

Patrick

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 17. 2017

No there are is no Haynes manual.  What you need are the Norton Spare Parts List for 1962 ? and the Maintenance Manual & Instruction Book for the unapproachable Norton Jubilee 250 & Navigator  .

Check the NOCshop. Maybe they do photocopies of these.

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by crawford_logan at February 17. 2017

OK, got my photo. Mine is a 1964 Navigator. Maybe not the best photo now that I see it but it will do.

There is a bracket welded on to each side of the down tube. You can see one clearly and the identical bracket is behind it - maybe you can just see it.

The head steady is a fairly small item which has a flat bit that has two holes - one for a stud screwing in to each head and then a sort of rolled edge through which a bolt goes tat is anchored each end by the brackets on the frame.

I guess the steady is needed since the frame is bolt up and would tend to flex so the more rigidity you can get in to it the better.

Best I can do at the moment.

Crawford

Attachments

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 17. 2017

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

OK, got my photo. Mine is a 1964 Navigator. Maybe not the best photo now that I see it but it will do.

There is a bracket welded on to each side of the down tube. You can see one clearly and the identical bracket is behind it - maybe you can just see it.

The head steady is a fairly small item which has a flat bit that has two holes - one for a stud screwing in to each head and then a sort of rolled edge through which a bolt goes tat is anchored each end by the brackets on the frame.

I guess the steady is needed since the frame is bolt up and would tend to flex so the more rigidity you can get in to it the better.

Best I can do at the moment.

Crawford

Hello Crawford--thanks very much!  I was sitting in my drive working on a Triumph this afternoon  (playing up last night) when I looked to left to see a guy wheeling a pristine BSA Goldstar along the road--the mag was playing up apparently --he came back with it running not long after apparently he lives nearby.

Re: Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 18. 2017

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

OK, got my photo. Mine is a 1964 Navigator. Maybe not the best photo now that I see it but it will do.

There is a bracket welded on to each side of the down tube. You can see one clearly and the identical bracket is behind it - maybe you can just see it.

The head steady is a fairly small item which has a flat bit that has two holes - one for a stud screwing in to each head and then a sort of rolled edge through which a bolt goes tat is anchored each end by the brackets on the frame.

I guess the steady is needed since the frame is bolt up and would tend to flex so the more rigidity you can get in to it the better.

Best I can do at the moment.

Crawford

Hello Crawford--thanks very much!  I was sitting in my drive working on a Triumph this afternoon  (playing up last night) when I looked to left to see a guy wheeling a pristine BSA Goldstar along the road--the mag was playing up apparently --he came back with it running not long after apparently he lives nearby.

Whoever cut the bracket off my frame has left no trace at all--there are bits of it that are bodges even I would not consider and other bits that look like they hardly been used--what it will be like inside--well I' ll find out.  Thanks again.

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