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The horrors within

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The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 26. 2017

Hello All,

The first rescue team has ventured into the navigator engine.

 

The primary side was dry of oil--has a dodgy looking bit of ally welding no doubt due to a footrest being pushed in enough to crack the outer cover.  The clutch as a revelation to me--after a lifetime of Triumph and BSA clutches.  I thought Ulrich's ally pressure plate was a tick aftermarket thing--I seen them on sale.  i did not realised that the little lightweights had them as standard.

 

The clutch adjuster screws all have hexagons braised on top of what I assume were typical British bike clutch adjusters.  The clutch plates had a sort of dotted finish--the friction ones looked fine.  The first plain plate has tangs rather smaller that I suspect they should be and it looks like two plates stuck together.  The clutch centre is pretty ridged --I have yet to check what's available.

 

A scene of woe awaited inside the timing cover.  As the pictures show--a mad chiseller has attacked the cam retaining nuts and there is a tooth broken off the idler wheel--or rather half of it.

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Re: The horrors within

Posted by crawford_logan at February 26. 2017

John,

First of all thanks for starting the new thread. Much easier to follow.

A few points;

  • The mad chisel brigade seem to have got to most of these nuts that I have seen before. I assume it is because you need a very large socket and most folk did not have one. Once you get the nuts off (gentle use of chisel?) you might be able to clean them up enough to reuse.
  • The two holes in each of the cam wheels should be threaded internally as you use them with a puller to draw the wheels off. Check and see if you can get a bolt to screw in to them and hold. If you are struggling to identify the thread let me know and I will measure mine in the garage
  • Watch when using the puller on the left one (inlet) as it is internally threaded and it is easy to let the centre of the puller go up it and damage the internal thread (used to drive the points). Use a bit of steel over the end of the shaft to stop the puller going in to it. You do not need a huge amount of pressure on the puller as the wheels come of easily enough.
  • I see what you mean about the chipped tooth. Once it is off have a good look at it and see if it can be dressed up. As I suspect you are not wanting to spend loads of money it may be salvageable.
  • To get the worm drive at the bottom off - remember left hand thread!

Hope this helps

Crawford

Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 26. 2017

Hell Crawford

 

Here are some more pictures

 

The chain case with drandruff

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Re: The horrors within

Posted by Katherine Scott at February 27. 2017

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Hello All,

The first rescue team has ventured into the navigator engine.

 

Grasshopper, you are following in the foot steps of black belt in bodgery! I feel your pain, some of the mechanical crimes commited against my commando were on  par with these!

Best regards

Esme

Re: The horrors within

Posted by patrick_mullen at February 27. 2017

But the good news is - it's all there, the alternator is complete and looks like it might live another day. I wonder what the purpose was welding the nuts unto the clutch adjusters? It doesn't make immediate sense as clearance between clutch and cover is pretty minimal.

It's probably had some interesting history, what with it's BSA forks, strange modification to the footrest brackets and now these bits.  Maybe used as a field bike?

 

Re: The horrors within

Posted by crawford_logan at February 27. 2017

John

I guess the nuts welded on to the clutch nuts is because someone thought it was easier to use a normal spanner that the forked thing for normal clutch nuts. Why they did this I cannot even guess.

The dandruff is common on bikes stored outside for years. I have a polishing kit fitted to an old Black & Decker on the bench and it polishes out quite easily and a lot less effort than Solvol Autosol on my finger.

I will warn you ahead of time. You need a proper puller to take the half time pinion off the crankshaft on one side and another to take the sprocket off the crank on the drive side. See if anyone in the Club is in your area and try to borrow one. I am in Aberdeen so suspect not too close to you.

Regards

Crawford

Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 27. 2017

Previously Katherine Scott wrote:

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Hello All,

The first rescue team has ventured into the navigator engine.

 

Grasshopper, you are following in the foot steps of black belt in bodgery! I feel your pain, some of the mechanical crimes commited against my commando were on  par with these!

Best regards

Esme

 

Indeed Esme--there's a lot of it about!

 

Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 27. 2017

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

But the good news is - it's all there, the alternator is complete and looks like it might live another day. I wonder what the purpose was welding the nuts unto the clutch adjusters? It doesn't make immediate sense as clearance between clutch and cover is pretty minimal.

It's probably had some interesting history, what with it's BSA forks, strange modification to the footrest brackets and now these bits.  Maybe used as a field bike?

 Hello Dan,

Certainly a farm bike  from what I hear.  I plan to mount a Lucas RM24 three phase stator --luckily the rotor diameter is compatible.  I suspect the existing one is intact.  Some one has fitted some funny little non-standard rectifier  at some point.

 

The clutch bit is interesting--there is no sign that the adjusters have ever had contact with the case--unless of course it was done and then the bike never started afterward hence no marks--we shall see.

 

Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at February 27. 2017

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John

I guess the nuts welded on to the clutch nuts is because someone thought it was easier to use a normal spanner that the forked thing for normal clutch nuts. Why they did this I cannot even guess.

The dandruff is common on bikes stored outside for years. I have a polishing kit fitted to an old Black & Decker on the bench and it polishes out quite easily and a lot less effort than Solvol Autosol on my finger.

I will warn you ahead of time. You need a proper puller to take the half time pinion off the crankshaft on one side and another to take the sprocket off the crank on the drive side. See if anyone in the Club is in your area and try to borrow one. I am in Aberdeen so suspect not too close to you.

Regards

Crawford

Hello Crawford,

I ordered the puller for the cam wheels (a cop out really as I could make one really--sloth).  Tell me more about the puller for the bottom timing gear.  Triumphs have a think like a chuck which works quite well but is type specific.

 

I have numerous pullers for various jobs.  Triumphs use the two threaded holes method but most use a two or three legged puller.

 

Any advice very welcome.

 

The  idler wheel could be fixed I suspect but a new one was £10 from the spares scheme.  They had new nuts at very reasonable prices (good job!).

 

Re: The horrors within

Posted by crawford_logan at March 01. 2017

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John

I guess the nuts welded on to the clutch nuts is because someone thought it was easier to use a normal spanner that the forked thing for normal clutch nuts. Why they did this I cannot even guess.

The dandruff is common on bikes stored outside for years. I have a polishing kit fitted to an old Black & Decker on the bench and it polishes out quite easily and a lot less effort than Solvol Autosol on my finger.

I will warn you ahead of time. You need a proper puller to take the half time pinion off the crankshaft on one side and another to take the sprocket off the crank on the drive side. See if anyone in the Club is in your area and try to borrow one. I am in Aberdeen so suspect not too close to you.

Regards

Crawford

Hello Crawford,

I ordered the puller for the cam wheels (a cop out really as I could make one really--sloth).  Tell me more about the puller for the bottom timing gear.  Triumphs have a think like a chuck which works quite well but is type specific.

 

I have numerous pullers for various jobs.  Triumphs use the two threaded holes method but most use a two or three legged puller.

 

Any advice very welcome.

 

The  idler wheel could be fixed I suspect but a new one was £10 from the spares scheme.  They had new nuts at very reasonable prices (good job!).

John,

 

I have twice tried to send you details of pullers but the Club site will not allow me to cut and paste in and the answer is quite long. Pity as I think others would have been interested.

Could you send me your email address to rswabz@sky.com and I will send you it directly.

Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at March 01. 2017

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John

I guess the nuts welded on to the clutch nuts is because someone thought it was easier to use a normal spanner that the forked thing for normal clutch nuts. Why they did this I cannot even guess.

The dandruff is common on bikes stored outside for years. I have a polishing kit fitted to an old Black & Decker on the bench and it polishes out quite easily and a lot less effort than Solvol Autosol on my finger.

I will warn you ahead of time. You need a proper puller to take the half time pinion off the crankshaft on one side and another to take the sprocket off the crank on the drive side. See if anyone in the Club is in your area and try to borrow one. I am in Aberdeen so suspect not too close to you.

Regards

Crawford

Hello Crawford,

I ordered the puller for the cam wheels (a cop out really as I could make one really--sloth).  Tell me more about the puller for the bottom timing gear.  Triumphs have a think like a chuck which works quite well but is type specific.

 

I have numerous pullers for various jobs.  Triumphs use the two threaded holes method but most use a two or three legged puller.

 

Any advice very welcome.

 

The  idler wheel could be fixed I suspect but a new one was £10 from the spares scheme.  They had new nuts at very reasonable prices (good job!).

John,

 

I have twice tried to send you details of pullers but the Club site will not allow me to cut and paste in and the answer is quite long. Pity as I think others would have been interested.

Could you send me your email address to rswabz@sky.com and I will send you it directly.

Hello Crawford,

And anyone else reading.  I took the frame etc to bits including taking the front end off.  I cannot seem to see how to get the cups out of the steering head

I have two front frame members -both 250 ones and they both look alike in this.   There appears to be nothing to knock against to get the cups out,  Do see the pictures.

Attachments

Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at March 01. 2017

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John

I guess the nuts welded on to the clutch nuts is because someone thought it was easier to use a normal spanner that the forked thing for normal clutch nuts. Why they did this I cannot even guess.

The dandruff is common on bikes stored outside for years. I have a polishing kit fitted to an old Black & Decker on the bench and it polishes out quite easily and a lot less effort than Solvol Autosol on my finger.

I will warn you ahead of time. You need a proper puller to take the half time pinion off the crankshaft on one side and another to take the sprocket off the crank on the drive side. See if anyone in the Club is in your area and try to borrow one. I am in Aberdeen so suspect not too close to you.

Regards

Crawford

Hello Crawford,

I ordered the puller for the cam wheels (a cop out really as I could make one really--sloth).  Tell me more about the puller for the bottom timing gear.  Triumphs have a think like a chuck which works quite well but is type specific.

 

I have numerous pullers for various jobs.  Triumphs use the two threaded holes method but most use a two or three legged puller.

 

Any advice very welcome.

 

The  idler wheel could be fixed I suspect but a new one was £10 from the spares scheme.  They had new nuts at very reasonable prices (good job!).

John,

 

I have twice tried to send you details of pullers but the Club site will not allow me to cut and paste in and the answer is quite long. Pity as I think others would have been interested.

Could you send me your email address to rswabz@sky.com and I will send you it directly.

Hello Crawford,

And anyone else reading.  I took the frame etc to bits including taking the front end off.  I cannot seem to see how to get the cups out of the steering head

I have two front frame members -both 250 ones and they both look alike in this.   There appears to be nothing to knock against to get the cups out,  Do see the pictures.

 

Are there cups even in there

 

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Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at March 01. 2017

Both the one on the bike and the spare one show no signs of removable bearing cups.

 

This the spare one

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Re: The horrors within

Posted by patrick_mullen at March 02. 2017

Hello John,

There SHOULD be removable bearing cups and upper and lower cones. There are differences between the Jubilee and the Navigator here so you need to decide what forks you intend to fit.  I think the NOCshop keep them.

This was probably how someone made the BSA forks fit without any actual real engineering involved.

Patrick.

 

Re: The horrors within

Posted by patrick_mullen at March 02. 2017

Here is a scan of the Jubilee front fork assembly.  The Navigator is different as they have Roadholder forks but the actual cones and cups are similar.

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Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at March 02. 2017

Hello Patrick,

What an utter animal  (a previous owner of my bike).  You can see where the balls have been forces into the soft steel of the bearing housing.  At first glance I thought there cups in there--they do look rather small (the housings) and oddly curved in section like the cups.

 

Would you agree there are none there (in the photos)

 

I think some has just loaded the balls into the housings (they are far more flat bottomed on all my other bikes) whacked the cups an grease in and left it at that.  What is the diameter of the navigator stem post?

 

I am away from the bike bit the BSA one is 1 inch I think.  When fitting dissimilar forks I have found that the fact that the stem post (3/4 inch) from BSA oil in frame 250s, 441, 500s is useful as it can be purchase as a stem threaded on each end  (alloy yokes) is not too difficult to weld in place with a suitable boss.

 

I am hoping the navigator cones are compatible with the BSA yoke. I f so it will be a doddle

 

The top yoke has been savaged but luckily I was not going to use the standard  handlebar mounts  (good job, half of each has been sawn off).

Re: The horrors within

Posted by patrick_mullen at March 02. 2017

Hello John,

Yes I think I would agree that there are no bearing cups in either picture.  From memory of the last time I had fork yokes apart I think they are usually obvious - they are either there or they are not.

I don't know the actual sizes for the steering stem post but someone might have one sitting on their bench and could measure. I would expect that the Navigator one is beefier than the Jubilee/Francis Barnett version. The Navigator uses standard short Roadholders as fitted to virtually every Norton from 350cc to 750cc.  Early yokes are 7" wide and later ones are 7 3/8" but the steering post was unchanged as far as I know. Short Roadholder yokes are not easy to come by but if you could locate a damaged bottom yoke and cut off the steering stem. The Jubilee steering post is a separate item and if you could locate one of these you could weld into your BSA yokes depending how they match up but it could be awkward as the Jubilee steering post is in effect mounted upside down i.e the adjuster is at the bottom. The adjustment on the short Roadholder is more traditional- i.e under the top yoke.  Or alternatively weld in the steering head to the Jubilee front tube from a matching BSA.

That should keep you occupied for a good hour or two !

Patrick

Re: The horrors within

Posted by Martyn Watson at March 03. 2017

I don't know anything about those lightweight twins but the last time i saw a bearing setup like that the cups knocked out from the outside. The whole cup piece in the photo fits up into the headstock and can be knocked out by hitting the outside curved surface of the bearing away from the headstock. Bicycles use this style.

I may be very wrong about this so proceed with caution and feel free to ignore any other incorrect opinions/advise i may proffer.

Bestest regards

Marty

Re: The horrors within

Posted by Martyn Watson at March 03. 2017

Ah, after reading the thread properly and seeing the scan someone has very kindly supplied, it does look like there should be replaceable cups in there. The curved surface does look like a bearing surface however and i can't see why a bearing would fit into a housing with a curved receiving surface.

Can you upload a photo of the headstock from the side showing the ends?

Re: The horrors within

Posted by Dan Field at March 03. 2017

I'll do it at the weekend if no one else does before!

dan

Re: The horrors within

Posted by richard_woolnough at March 03. 2017

the trick to get steering bearings out of a BMW headstock is to drill a couple of 2/3mm holes under the retaining seat and punch them out with a small drift,  warming  first helps of course, for what it's worth, kind regards

Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at March 04. 2017

Hello All,

 

Thanks for all you suggestions

A friend of mine has taken the had stock off to work to get the cups out.

 

I took the outer gear cover off this evening and spotted this item seemingly cut out of very thin all with tinsnips

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Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at March 04. 2017

The bodger had struck again.  Someone seems to have assembled the engine long ago but never started it up.

 

Just as well as many things were rather loose.  There was no key driving the alternator.  I am struck by little features such as the big spacer putting all the load from the alternator nut onto the ally outer not the steel inner.

 

There seems a lot more room--at at least clearance than other makes--I could never get big nyloc nuts in the Triumph's case.

 

I see what you mean about the sprocket Crawford. Splines and a key--real man's woodroffe key as well!

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Re: The horrors within

Posted by Dan Field at March 04. 2017

At least you didn't find a primary chain tensioner made out of wood!

Re: The horrors within

Posted by patrick_mullen at March 04. 2017

John,

here's a scan of the gearbox.  The bits you are referring to are presumably item 13.  This is part of the pawl spring assembly.

Have you got the rest of the bits- items 12, 13, 14.  12 is the pawl spring and items 13 & 14 locate this in position. 13 is made of light alloy. You have the pre 106838  type gear box.

Treat the Wipac rotor with care as they are very difficult to obtain another.  The big washer makes sense as the rotor centre can separate from the alloy bit if it is left off.

I doubt very much if you have any bearing cups in the headstock.  They usually fall out with little effort.

Patrick

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Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at March 04. 2017

Previously Dan Field wrote:

At least you didn't find a primary chain tensioner made out of wood!Hello Dan,

Not yet.  I took the gearbox out today and removed the oil pump and cam wheels, etc.  The gearbox all looked healthy--a robust item compared to BSA unit singles.  The layshaft bush seems to have been spinning in the case mind.

 

The cam wheels cam off easily.  I could not use the engine sprocket puller but luckily I had one that would suit.  I to knock the woodroffe keys about to get them out of the keyways.

 

Top end off tomorrow.

Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at March 04. 2017

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

John,

here's a scan of the gearbox.  The bits you are referring to are presumably item 13.  This is part of the pawl spring assembly.

Have you got the rest of the bits- items 12, 13, 14.  12 is the pawl spring and items 13 & 14 locate this in position. 13 is made of light alloy. You have the pre 106838  type gear box.

Treat the Wipac rotor with care as they are very difficult to obtain another.  The big washer makes sense as the rotor centre can separate from the alloy bit if it is left off.

I doubt very much if you have any bearing cups in the headstock.  They usually fall out with little effort.

Patrick

Thanks Patrick.  I had several of those rotors once--if they are the same as BSA Bantam ones--still hindsight eh!

 

I think I have the whole gearbox--it could get all the gears from what I could see.  Apart from one bush loose in the housing it all (tin snip cut ally part non withstanding) it all looks in good order.

Re: The horrors within

Posted by patrick_mullen at March 04. 2017

The centre hole in the Jubilee/Navigator Wipac rotor is 1" which makes it pretty well unique. The Bantam uses a Wipac but is a smaller bore so won't fit the crank.  I don't think that any of the Lucas rotors will fit either although the Lucas stator can be used with the Wipac rotor.   Al Osborn is the man if you need help on this.

Sounds like you already know how to sort the layshaft bush.

 

Re: The horrors within

Posted by John Pullen-Appleby at March 05. 2017

Hello Patrick

luckily I have a lathe in the shed.

 

What I am interested in is the puller to remove the engine pinon-(on the crank--dives the idler that dives the cams.  -I take it there is a special tool.  Crawford Logan was going to send me something by e-mail but I have not heard from him.

 

To my surprise I just took the shocks to bits and found the dampers work perfectly and do not leak oil.  I have ordered my stainless cones from Armours and found a gear lever that will fit.  I have a cut about gear pedal that I will  be to use to make up a kickstart with (the splined bit that is).

 

I am aiming to take the head off today.

 

I once fitted a WIPAC alternator to s C15 I helped some one build--new it was (in 1987)--that would have been 3/4 bore.  I wonder why Norton used an inch bore one--I always thought they tried to use parts common to the AMC range.

 

I plan to fit a Lucas stator

 

Cheers

JPA


Re: The horrors within

Posted by patrick_mullen at March 06. 2017

The original 1959 Maintenance Manual has no mention of a special puller for the crank sprocket and I don't remember anything special being required on the various engines I have stripped down in the past. I think clearance is a bit marginal to get most heavy duty pullers behind the sprocket. A spot of heat from an acetylene (don't roast it to red hot) usually works. The old acetylene welder was the best thing ever invented when you work a lot with old vehicles such as MGs.-streets in front of MIGs and TIGs -(except for actually welding on new work of course).

I don't know why Norton used the 1" Wipac rotor.  It's an unusual size.  The old Wipac rotor though survives well and it seems to keep it's magnetism.  I think you could drill out the centre hole in a BSA rotor but I have never actually tried it.

Patrick.

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